Jan. 28, 2025

The Role of Proteins, Fats, and Fibers in Poultry Nutrition-Part 1

Show Notes
Transcript

In this episode of the Poultry Keepers Podcast, Jeff Mattocks, Carey Blackmon, and Rip Stalvey explore the complexities of proteins, fats, and fibers in poultry nutrition.

They delve into protein sources, comparing vegetable-based (mostly soybean and canola meal) and animal-based (fish meal and meat meals) proteins, and discuss essential amino acids like lysine and methionine. The conversation covers the importance of sustainable fishing for fishmeal, concerns over overfeeding protein, and specific nutritional needs during different growth stages of poultry, including chicks, growers, developers, layers, and breeding stock.

The hosts emphasize the need for balanced amino acid profiles and adequate vitamins for healthy poultry development and productivity.

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WEBVTT

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Welcome to another episode of the Poultry Keepers Podcast, where we talk poultry from feathers to function.

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Today's show features Jeff Mattocks, Carey Blackmon and Rip Stallvee discussing the roles of proteins, fats, and fibers in poultry nutrition in a recent PK 360 Livestream show.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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We thought we would talk about the major feed ingredients, talk about proteins, talk about fibers, and we talk about fats.

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But we're going to get a bit of a deep dive.

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And as always, if y'all have a question, don't hesitate to ask us, because we will do our very, very best to answer those for you.

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So, The sources of protein in poultry diets, you know, you've basically got two sources, vegetable based proteins and animal based proteins.

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Jeff, I'm guessing that the most popular vegetable based protein is soybean.

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Yeah, unfortunately, the number one, the king of protein across the U.

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S.

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and actually most of the world is solvent extracted soybean meal where they use a chemical decreaser.

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Yes, hexane to loosen and dislodge the flat the fats from the soybean flesh And then they drive it off with forced air and they capture the fat They tell you that they separate the hexane because they want to reuse it.

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It's expensive I don't know.

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Can you ever get a hundred percent out?

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I don't know That's I'm a speculative there.

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So that hexane kind of scares me off a little bit that can be some pretty bad stuff.

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Yeah And I'm suspecting, since soybeans are in there, that the other bees and peens, bees and peas like legumes would be good.

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Canola meal, I know they use that out west, don't they?

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Oh, they're using that in your neck of the woods, even so, there's a big canola meal processor, you know, in, in North Northwest or Northwest Georgia, but there's several, there's canola is now being grown quite widely throughout the Southwest or through the South Southern states.

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It's a little more drought tolerant

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and

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it has a high oil yield.

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So when the oil market is high, the value of canola is higher.

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But it's easier to grow and it's a good rotation for, you know, in place of soybeans.

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It's just, you know, so you see a lot of canola meal being used more and more.

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It's growing.

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Gotcha.

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I was not aware we had a processing plant in the south now.

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That's, that's good to know.

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And we would be remiss if we got to talking about proteins and we didn't bring up amino acids, one of our favorite subjects.

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Mine anyway.

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Mine for sure.

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Absolutely.

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But amino acids in vegetable proteins, can we get all the amino acids we need strictly from using vegetable proteins?

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It's not that we can't, but the ratios are not right.

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Okay, so.

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Vegetable proteins tend to be higher in lysine, but they're very short in methionine.

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There's only a couple of vegetable protein sources that have, you know, significant amounts of methionine, and one of them being sesame meal, which is hard to find, right?

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But sesame meal is.

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Really high in methionine.

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So it is an option.

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The other one is camelina meal.

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And, you know, that's part of the mustard family.

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Again, limited supply, pretty much in the Northwest.

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You really don't see it in the South or the East.

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So, but yeah, for the most part, you know, when you're looking at peas, soybeans, other dry edible beans their ratio of lysine to methionine is about four to one.

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And in a poultry diet, we're looking for about a two to one or a two and a half to one lysine to methionine ratio.

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So,

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so I'm assuming then that Animal based proteins have a much better level of those amino acids that are missing in some of the vegetable based protein.

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They do.

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Especially if it's considered a wild animal that's been able to go out and forage and feed on its own.

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You know, that's why I lean a little heavier on the fish meals versus So we're finding that, you know, like commercial meat and bone meal poultry meal, feathered meals, things like that.

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Animals that are being fed corn and soy those amino acids are not as enriched as in like a wild caught fish meal.

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So even I saw this first one with the catfish, which is farmed, you know, widely throughout the south, southern states.

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And the amino acid profile on catfish meal.

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When they take the fillets off and they process it, everything else that's left, you know, those amino acid profiles are not really that great because the catfish is eating a corn and soy based diet.

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So,

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isn't there some other aspects of catfish meal?

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Now that you brought that up, it's been a while since we've talked about catfish meal, and I seem like I recall you saying something, but I honestly can't remember what it was something about perhaps in a way it was processed or something.

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Well, that's,

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yeah, I mean, it doesn't have the greatest, you know, clean process whatsoever, but I avoid it because, you know, antibiotics and other chemical treatments are frequently given to the catfish, right?

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So people don't realize that those catfish fillets that they may buy or eat at, you know, Cracker Barrel or wherever they like those catfish are probably getting fed as much antibiotics as chickens.

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Right.

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Just to keep them healthy.

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Right.

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They have a ongoing regimen to maintain where they're feeding antibiotics to them on a pretty much regular basis.

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That's when you said that, that jogged my memory.

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And that's what I recall.

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That's the

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only reason I avoid it.

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It's, you know, I mean, everybody has their own personal preferences and what is okay and what is not okay.

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So, you know, everybody needs to make that decision for themselves.

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Oh, sure.

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But, you know, and there's a lot of people using catfish meal and, you know, is it better than pork meal or, you know, for sure.

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I don't really want to feed same species back, you know, so I don't feed any poultry or feather back to, you know, chickens.

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That's just my personal preference again.

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Right.

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So,

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I mean, that seems a little weird.

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To feed chicken back to chicken.

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It's, it's a

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common practice.

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I mean, it is, but it just seems weird to me.

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So, you know, in the commercial world, what they look at, okay.

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So most of the protein prices are set based on.

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The price of soybean meal.

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So soybean meal goes up, then all other proteins may go up as well, but in a short period of time, in a 30 day window, they may not adjust quickly.

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So, you know, your large like Pilgrim's Pride, Tyson, you know, all of those larger integrators, they'll go buy and shop, they'll go shop and buy Based on the price per pound of protein and so that's why so sometimes, you know You'll see those products are being added into their diets usually not Just depends on what the market price is So they're always shot they got buyers that do nothing but shop and book prices and lock them in Trying to maximize the profit of those corporations.

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Let's talk about fish meal for a minute And sometimes when I mention to people about adding fish meal to their poultry diets, they bring up the point, well that's not a sustainably harvested product.

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And I know some of it is not, but I think there's some, and the supplier you use, I mean you showed us the video they do practice sustainable harvesting.

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They do.

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They realize that it's a natural resource that, you know, they're, they're life independent.

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You know, they're, they're dependent on, right.

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And they have been for multiple generations.

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So, you know, they're out there they're checking the catch.

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They're measuring the amount of juveniles.

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They're, you know, they have spotter planes in, in the air all the time, counting the number of pods.

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But So far, there's no regulation or there's no controls on how much menhaden is caught out of the gulf or along the eastern seaboard.

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So, if it's good weather and the fish are easy to find, you know, your daybrooks daybrook industries, omega proteins, etc.

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They'll go harvest as much as they can harvest, right?

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They, they're not really, you know, they're not setting a limit.

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And so, there, there is Not really sustainability there or there's no oversight.

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There's no oversight and control on the harvest.

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There's nobody really measuring, you know, okay, what is the total population out there?

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Right?

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How much should we limit the harvest to?

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And nothing like that.

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Whereas like the sardine industry in the Pacific, you know, off the coast of Peru, you know, South America through the Latin American countries and into Mexico, they work together collecting the science and the data and Peru will actually set a harvest limit.

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Right.

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They'll say, okay, based on our scientific research, we will not harvest more than like, you know, a thousand metric tons.

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I'm just throwing out a number, right?

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And this small group of fisheries in the Sea of Cortez that I'm working with, you know, the fishing companies there all work together, like all of their owners get together.

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They discuss it.

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They sit down with the Mexican government officials, right?

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You know, they, so they have a sustainability, you know, a sustainable harvest certificate that they go through and the way that they do it.

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And if they're not catching adults, you know, then they'll move or they won't keep.

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fishing juveniles, right?

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Because they know all they're doing is cutting off their future harvest.

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Okay.

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So all fishing is not the same everywhere.

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True.

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Very true.

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You know, you know, and, and talking about fish meal, I can tell a difference between birds that have.

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My birds especially, if there's fish meal in their diet, or if there's not.

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I see it primarily in the feathers.

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The feather quality is much better if they're on fish meal.

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I think it has a little bit more shine to it.

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That may just be my imagination.

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I don't know.

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And I think I can detect a difference in the taste of the eggs.

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Not, not negatively.

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It's just a little bit too much fish meal in that.

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Can ruin everything, but it just has a richer or full bodied flavor to it

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Yeah, and if you're still getting feed from Caleb And you know also the other ingredients that are in there again.

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There's no byproducts, right?

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So right you're getting a complete feed and then if you add a little bit of fish meal to that now for layers You don't want to go over about three three percent of the diet total Including what may already be in the feed, then you're going to start to taste or smell a little bit of that fish when you're cooking those eggs or eating those eggs, but at 3 percent most people cannot detect it.

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And incidentally, I'm, I'm not getting feed from Caleb anymore.

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I'm getting it from our compadre down there.

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Mr.

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Blackman.

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Better yet?

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Absolutely.

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Like, like doing business with friends.

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Yeah.

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But yeah, that's what you're seeing.

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And, and the, the natural fats in the fish meal also are going to help with that shine, like you were talking about.

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They're more of a high omega 3 type fish meal, you know, so the bird overall is going to be a little bit more healthy than using all seed oil, seed oils.

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So, they're able to process it, you know, and we, we're going to talk about fats later, but right now we're talking about proteins.

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But it's hard to beat a good meat type protein.

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I hope Mike's on tonight.

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I wish he'd chime in.

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Mike Lotzer from Alaska, and now he's feeding, you know roadkill moose and fishy bear and salmon eggs, so.

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Every time I see him post it just literally amazes me of the things he has to go through and the adaptations he has to make to be able to to raise poultry efficiently and effectively up there in Alaska.

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But look, if

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you, if you talk to him about it, the man has got it to a science.

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Oh, he does.

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He's done an astronomical amount of research, but the way he's got it down pat, He's got it to a science, it's more economical, and it's better at the same time.

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And you know, you would think everything in Alaska is ridiculous, but he's, he's made it work.

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I give him a lot of credit for that because, like you said, he is a researchaholic.

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And we're constantly messaging back and forth, bouncing ideas off of each other, but he just, he really impresses me.

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Well, he was willing to go the extra mile to find these resources.

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You know, when he reached out to me and said, you know, I can't bring in roasted soybeans.

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I, you know, these, this is not cost effective for me.

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Right.

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He goes, I've got to find a way to feed my birds more with more local inputs.

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I said, well, what do you have easy access to?

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You know, on the protein side, we started talking and he gave me a good list and I started looking up the nutrient values and figured putting it all together on a piece of paper.

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And here we go.

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So he seems like he's pretty happy with what's going on up there.

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I think so.

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I think so.

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Let's talk about amino acids and which one impacts a particular thing about poultry.

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For example, lysine is going to be really critical for muscle growth and maintenance, and that also has some impact on feather development.

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And the overall body condition, whereas methionine, my paper is all stuck together here, methionine seems to have more of an impact on feather production and that's, if you're showing birds, okay, I can't say enough, pay attention to the Lysine, methionine, and if you can find out what it is, the cysteine level as well, too, because cysteine is an amino acid that really boosts the feather quality.

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Cysteine is one of the major components in keratin, and that's what makes up chicken feathers.

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Those are really, really important, and if you're not sure, drop me a message or something, and we can address that for you and give you a little help there.

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Yeah, there's still, there's no good hard data on what the right level of cysteine is.

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Somehow inside the chicken they can convert methionine to be like cysteine.

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However, if you You know, and that's why we went with the cysteine in the show pro with Gary is when you can supplement the cysteine Beside the methionine they work much more efficiently everything that I've seen Cysteine should be 50 to 65 percent of what the methionine level is, right?

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So, you know for shooting for that 0.

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5 methionine You know, I need at least a 0.

00:16:31.640 --> 00:16:49.260
3, you know, right around that cysteine but it's hard to calculate for, I mean, even my nutritional program that I do formulas on you know, is old enough that it's not valuing, it's not reporting a cysteine value.

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So I'm not sure how I get that upgraded or what I, where do I go from here, but it's going to be up and coming and it's going to be important.

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Especially for show poultry, right?

00:16:59.485 --> 00:16:59.706
Yes.

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Where you want the absolute best feather formation and quality cysteine is going to be the ticket.

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I mean, the others are important as well, but the cysteine is like, it is the magic key.

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It's the icing on the cake.

00:17:16.026 --> 00:17:16.625
Yes, sir.

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It helps with the sheen, that's for sure.

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Let's talk about age specific.

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Protein requirements.

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Let's start off with baby chicks from the time they hatched till they're what, maybe six weeks old.

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Again, depends on those amino acid levels, but you know, you're anywhere from 20 to 22 percent.

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So when I see people posting they're feeding 24 or like a game bird starter, I get really nervous.

00:17:45.915 --> 00:17:47.105
That's a little bit of overkill.

00:17:47.135 --> 00:17:51.715
You can overfeed protein and people just don't can be dangerous.

00:17:52.076 --> 00:18:11.516
Yeah you know there was some post not long ago about gout and Too much protein or too much calcium Can lead to gout and it's hard to fix gout once once you get that uric acid buildup it's hard to get it, it's hard to get the bird back to normal.

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It also affects negatively affects the hatch ability of that bird's offspring.

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I've seen it to where a hen had that and you know, she, she, they were still breeding and all that good stuff.

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But when you would hatch a chick out, that chick would only survive for about a week.

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And it was because of the, you know, the, that had that, that chick, the chicken, the hen had that gout and it wasn't good.

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And I have seen more comments about people dealing with gout, I think, in the past 12 months than I ever recall seeing before.

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And I don't know if this is because there's this mantra, particularly in the Bantam community, is that birds need a lot of protein, need a lot of protein.

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And that's not really the case.

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They need a well balanced diet, but it doesn't have to be just gobby rich in protein.

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Well, I think for me at one point before I really started learning a whole lot about nutrition, I would start chicks out.

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Like chicken chicks on a quail starter because I knew like I knew the amino acid levels what they should be.

00:19:31.556 --> 00:19:43.875
And if you look at most of your store bought feed, the amino acids on a game bird starter feed is about what they really should be for a chicken.

00:19:44.675 --> 00:19:48.346
You know, and that is part of the reason why it costs a little more and all that.

00:19:48.625 --> 00:19:51.036
But so what I was doing is.

00:19:51.715 --> 00:20:09.175
I would feed them the game bird starter for two, two and a half weeks, but then I would pull them off because I knew that was way too much protein and you know, gout, it burns your kidneys up, all that good stuff for longterm, you know, prolonged uses.

00:20:09.695 --> 00:20:15.695
But I was doing it in the beginning to get them the amino acids that they needed.

00:20:16.496 --> 00:20:20.336
And now that I've learned a whole lot more about nutrition.

00:20:20.391 --> 00:20:29.810
You know, I, I know that there's ways to get the methionine, lysine, vitamin A, D and B.

00:20:30.421 --> 00:20:39.651
You know, you can get all of that stuff without buying the more expensive game bird feeder feed for your birds.

00:20:40.451 --> 00:20:42.441
And it's, it's a lot better for them.

00:20:43.240 --> 00:21:02.786
But I really think that's the reason why a lot of people do because they don't know ways to supplement the feed, a chick starter that's in that 18 to 22 percent range to get the amino acids and the vitamin levels without doing game bird or something else.

00:21:03.586 --> 00:21:09.516
Well, I mean, when you stop and think about it, Kerry, there's really not much information available to folks about doing that.

00:21:09.905 --> 00:21:10.226
No.

00:21:11.026 --> 00:21:16.516
Well, the one that's making me nervous is the people that are buying that 24, that 28 percent protein.

00:21:16.915 --> 00:21:17.276
Oh, yeah.

00:21:17.425 --> 00:21:29.786
And still putting the breeder supplement or the show pro or something like that with it because now you're really kicking it up a notch and You're lighting a fuse on a stick of dynamite.

00:21:29.855 --> 00:21:31.276
You just don't want to do that, right?

00:21:31.756 --> 00:21:37.175
Yeah, it looks good for a little while but you know too much of a good thing is not good

00:21:37.976 --> 00:21:51.726
You know, I had somebody message me earlier today They wanted me to recalculate some numbers because they were feeding one particular type of feed that was not good, but that was all they could get.

00:21:52.375 --> 00:21:55.076
And they were using a breeder supplement.

00:21:55.465 --> 00:21:57.455
and additional feed fish meal.

00:21:58.256 --> 00:22:03.776
And now that they're, they're getting a better feed, like, do I need to change it?

00:22:03.776 --> 00:22:06.096
And I said, yes, definitely.

00:22:06.096 --> 00:22:07.215
You need to change it.

00:22:07.695 --> 00:22:11.086
Let's, let us run some numbers and, and see.

00:22:11.746 --> 00:22:23.286
What you may need to change it to, but, you know, I really, I don't think they're going to need the fishmeal and the breeder supplement anymore because they're, they, they are buying a better quality feed.

00:22:24.086 --> 00:22:25.625
Yeah, don't, yeah, don't do that.

00:22:25.635 --> 00:22:27.346
I mean, you can't overdo it, right?

00:22:27.806 --> 00:22:28.246
Yeah.

00:22:29.046 --> 00:22:32.905
Not only is it bad for the birds, it's bad for your pocketbook in the long run, too.

00:22:33.346 --> 00:22:33.705
Yeah.

00:22:34.506 --> 00:22:38.205
What about grower chicks, Jeff, 6 to 18 weeks old?

00:22:39.006 --> 00:22:42.066
Well, you know, here in the North, I'm good at an 18%.

00:22:42.411 --> 00:22:48.490
You know, because they're going to eat a little bit more due to temperature in the South, I would run probably a 19.

00:22:48.506 --> 00:22:58.076
19 or 20, especially in the hot weather because their, their dietary intake there, the amount of feed they eat every day is going to be reduced, right?

00:22:58.226 --> 00:23:01.175
So again, I'm not looking at the percentage.

00:23:01.175 --> 00:23:06.115
I'm looking at how many grams of protein the bird actually consumes in a day.

00:23:06.915 --> 00:23:11.286
We only can shop for it based on, you know, percent of protein.

00:23:11.955 --> 00:23:17.465
So, you know, in a hotter climate you know, I'm going to want to run a little bit higher.

00:23:17.965 --> 00:23:27.925
Protein only, you know, because of reduced intake, you know, so like for you down there, Rip, I think a 19, a 19 is probably ideal.

00:23:27.925 --> 00:23:34.236
And then up here, you know, I can get by with a 17 and a half or an 18 in the north.

00:23:34.776 --> 00:23:35.135
So

00:23:35.935 --> 00:23:37.036
what about layers?

00:23:37.605 --> 00:23:44.776
And I'm, I'm assuming as we're going along, the protein requirements are starting to drop a little bit and I'm assuming that's the same thing for layers, correct?

00:23:45.445 --> 00:23:56.066
Well, even before you get to layer, so if you're going to do layers, so to speak, then we want to go to a developer feed, which is going to be around 16 and a half, 17 percent protein.

00:23:56.601 --> 00:23:56.891
Right.

00:23:57.060 --> 00:24:12.340
And so you're doing like six weeks on each stage because when you go to layer, you want the, you want to see an increase in protein at the onset of late because now her demand for, for protein is higher because she is producing an egg.

00:24:12.760 --> 00:24:13.050
Okay.

00:24:13.211 --> 00:24:16.701
So, you know so you go starter grower developer.

00:24:17.486 --> 00:24:17.796
Right.

00:24:17.915 --> 00:24:20.945
And then, and, and it's, this isn't just for laying chicks.

00:24:20.945 --> 00:24:25.036
This is for everyone, but you don't have, you don't have developer options out there.

00:24:25.445 --> 00:24:25.736
Right.

00:24:25.756 --> 00:24:30.046
So that's the downside, but I don't know

00:24:30.066 --> 00:24:33.175
when, when I've seen a developer in the peach store here,

00:24:33.566 --> 00:24:35.516
you have it and you won't, right.

00:24:35.826 --> 00:24:37.425
It's just one.

00:24:37.425 --> 00:24:42.736
The customer doesn't know they need it to the feed stores, not going to sell enough of it to keep it on the shelf.

00:24:43.135 --> 00:24:43.465
Right.

00:24:43.526 --> 00:24:45.655
So you're just not going to see a developer.

00:24:45.760 --> 00:24:52.901
But a developer is actually important, you know, to finish that growth cycle, let things finish out in that, in that hand.

00:24:53.340 --> 00:24:59.941
Or that cockrell, you know, at a little bit slower pace without overfeeding the protein, they don't need that much protein at that stage.

00:25:00.381 --> 00:25:00.590
Right?

00:25:00.711 --> 00:25:12.641
And then as soon as you see that first egg, we want to jump back up into that again, up here where they're gonna consume a little more, we're gonna want about a 17 or an 18 and then down.

00:25:13.211 --> 00:25:20.570
You know, down in the South, we would run a 19, 19 or a 20 layer, just depending on how much they're eating every day.

00:25:20.780 --> 00:25:25.951
So, I'm assuming a hen's going to eat four ounces, you know, above the Mason Dixon line, right?

00:25:26.020 --> 00:25:33.740
Below the Mason Dixon line, probably two and a half to three ounces, if it's good feed, is all she should need, right?

00:25:33.861 --> 00:25:40.381
Now, if it's full of byproducts and, and other stuff, she'll eat more, trying to compensate and get her energy needs.

00:25:40.486 --> 00:25:46.435
So, Noah asks, what about birds like Buckeyes that require higher protein?

00:25:46.996 --> 00:25:53.925
Noah, I don't want to step on your toes, but a Buckeye doesn't require any higher protein than any other breed.

00:25:54.435 --> 00:25:57.296
Okay, so, if it's well balanced feed.

00:25:57.391 --> 00:26:06.391
properly put together, they're going to be starting on a 22 dropping down to a 19, you know, same regimen that we just talked about.

00:26:06.601 --> 00:26:13.260
If the amino acids are correct and the feed isn't loaded up with a bunch of byproducts.

00:26:13.351 --> 00:26:19.590
So people are just kind of drunk on protein and way over feeding it in the show world.

00:26:20.111 --> 00:26:23.351
And it's, it's not the protein that makes the difference.

00:26:23.351 --> 00:26:25.510
It is the amino acids.

00:26:25.691 --> 00:26:25.931
Okay.

00:26:26.730 --> 00:26:28.361
What about breeding stock?

00:26:29.161 --> 00:26:31.381
Any difference there in protein requirements or

00:26:31.381 --> 00:26:32.415
needs, I should say?

00:26:32.516 --> 00:26:43.631
I, so once you breeding stocks that you want to collect eggs from and hatch is, we want to have a bump up in vitamins or across the board, A for sure, A and e.

00:26:44.101 --> 00:26:45.840
And we've gotta get the.

00:26:45.965 --> 00:26:50.965
The B vitamins up, you know, the riboflavin, the thiamine, the niacin.

00:26:51.465 --> 00:27:08.925
That's all going to transfer into that egg to give you better chick vigor and increased hatch ability, you know So I'm looking at increasing those and I would come up a little bit on the amino acids or protein, you know, just, just during that breeding cycle.

00:27:09.125 --> 00:27:17.586
And that's where adding that little bit of fish meal is going to be huge as far as getting those birds to, you know, to maximize the birds.

00:27:18.385 --> 00:27:19.435
True laying potential.

00:27:20.215 --> 00:27:21.925
Thank you for listening to our podcast.

00:27:22.405 --> 00:27:29.865
Be sure to join us next Tuesday as we conclude this discussion on the role of proteins, fats, and fibers in poultry nutrition.

00:27:30.415 --> 00:27:35.336
Until then keep enjoying your birds and keep them happy, healthy and productive.