Aug. 5, 2024
Selection and Growouts-Part 2
In this episode of the Poultry Keepers podcast, Mandelyn Royal and co-hosts John Gunterman and Rip Stalvey continue their in-depth discussion on poultry breeding and selection practices. The conversation covers techniques such as identifying which hens lay which eggs, the importance of shape and size in egg selection, and the role of natural selection in maintaining flock quality. The hosts share their personal experiences with different breeding methods, flock management challenges, and achieving consistency. They emphasize the significance of production abilities, maintaining genetic vigor, and the careful balancing required in breeding programs. The episode concludes with reflections on long-term goals, infrastructure improvements, and the vital role of backyard flocks in food sustainability. Listeners are encouraged to engage with their birds and provide feedback for future podcast topics.
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WEBVTT
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Hi, I'm Mandelyn Royal and I would like to welcome you to another episode of the Poultry Keepers podcast.
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Joining me in the studio are John Gunterman and Rip Stalvey, the rest of our podcast team, and we're looking forward to visiting with you and talking poultry from feathers to function.
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Consistency is so important in a clan.
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You can't stress that too much.
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You prompted something, a little question went off in my brain here.
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But how do you determine which female is laying which eggs or do you even worry about that?
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I do worry about that.
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And I use my, I have a three hole sort cage.
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That's big enough to where if I needed to put a bird in there for a week, I could.
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So if I walk into a pen and I say, okay, ladies, I need to know who's laying what, and we're going to start with who's not laying.
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So I won't let them out that day.
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And each of my doors of the barn, I can disconnect them from my pulley system of opening and closing.
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And I'll just shut their door for that day.
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And I'll hover around the pen and watch and see who's doing nest box activity.
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Okay.
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And that nest box activity usually means she's going to lay an egg that day.
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So I go ahead and grab her first, put her in the sort cage.
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And then within less than 12 hours, I know which egg is hers.
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But then the other ones, if they're not showing me that nest box activity, they end up in the sort cage longer.
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And if I don't see an egg from them for five days, then I go ahead and put her in a different pen and see if that story changes or if she was the dud I was after.
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And sometimes the condition of the bird will tell me.
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And then I can put her in the sort cage and confirm that she's not in lay.
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But sometimes I've had that also be wrong.
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Sometimes just by separating the birds and disrupting their routine, they can go off lay for a day or three as well.
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So giving them a chance to recover before, putting them off to summer camp might not be a bad idea.
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One thing I learned early on And I did a lot of pair and trio matings, or maybe a male and three females.
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But, if I was observant, I could identify by the shape of the egg who laid that egg.
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Doesn't really work if you get up much above three females, because that will Drive you nuts, but if you pay attention and you know when a chicken lays and you grab that egg and really look at it, there's going to be slight variations in shape, maybe in texture in size, but you can identify with great certainty, by doing that what hen laid what egg.
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If the eggs are too different, they'll end up being breakfast eggs and my breakfast basket has there's one female.
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I don't know why I still have her, but she's giant and massive and very meaty, but her comb is too big and her egg is just always very round.
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Two round, so I don't hatch them because it's so consistent and when they are consistently not the right shape, that's when you can rule her out from the breeding pen because she's going to be more liable to make daughters that produce that same way.
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And that goes for like the
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super long, long torpedo shaped eggs too.
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Have you ever had a problem getting those round eggs to hatch?
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Some of them didn't develop at all, even if they were fertilized.
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I wonder if there's something else going on there.
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And I noticed sometimes they might be more porous in the shell, especially when they're Coming towards the end of the laying cycle,
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And I don't know really what the cause is and why it works out this way, but when I had Marans and they prefer them to lay that rounder shape egg, because they think the pigment on it is darker.
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But I had a time to getting those rounder eggs to hatch.
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It was, you may set six and get one or two to hatch.
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Yeah, I remember some of that with Marans too.
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And so I was looking like you want it rounded on either end, but you still want to see more of that bottom point.
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With much of the roundness at the top of the egg and like the overall length of the egg You want to see it oblong and not basketball shaped.
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Correct.
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And being able to tell which is the pointy end Sometimes eggs, I look at them and go, I don't know which direction to set this thing So it doesn't get set.
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That's a,
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and that ends up in the freezer.
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You can't tell which ends up.
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Yeah.
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Honestly, one thing I tried and it didn't really work any better, but with those round eggs, I tried laying them on their side.
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Let them decide?
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And it just didn't work.
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No matter what I tried.
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I gave up.
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I think
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it's natural selection.
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I don't think a round egg is meant to survive.
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And we're just, we're managing our flock.
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We're man aging.
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So we're, accelerating the natural selection process.
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I think if we're doing our jobs correctly.
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It, it stands to reason to me that for example, birds that have problems physically are shunned by the rest of the flock or they don't last long for whatever reason.
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So why would it not hold true for the same thing with eggs?
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And maybe I'm oversimplifying that.
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I don't know.
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The natural world is a pretty unforgiving place, and I think by coddling our birds, assisting in hatching, and then breeding from those eggs that we helped unwrap we're doing a big disservice to the breed if we're doing that.
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And I used to do that, and I did notice a decline in flock quality, and I was like
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You bet.
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It all started clicking into place.
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It's like propping up those birds and limping them along, and then Getting the egg from her and going, Oh, it's so cute.
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I'm going to put it in the incubator.
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And then a much higher failure rate happened from her offspring.
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And it started, everything started making sense after that.
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I was like, Oh, the old timers were right.
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I really should have listened.
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The it, so many times when we prop up birds, Over Medicaid and keep birds, we really shouldn't for whatever reason, it'll come back to bite us every single time, or at least it has me.
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Sometimes I chuckle when I think about the old Frank Perdue commercial.
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It takes a tough man to make a tender chicken.
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And I really, that now that I'm raising poultry the truth behind that just makes a lot more sense.
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He's right.
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Let's talk about weights, and particularly as it pertains to females.
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What, do you have a target weight for a bird before you put it in your breeding pen?
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Do you want them to attain?
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Oh, for sure.
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And it is?
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When I first got going with the American Bresse, there were some girls who struggled to even get to three and a half pounds.
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That's And that's not very dual purpose.
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And they were very pinched up in the back end.
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They had very weak fleshing.
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And I also, in that first year, I had a real high rate of prolapse as well.
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And that's when I started digging into the breeding selection of that and what it all meant.
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So now if they're going to start laying an egg at 18 weeks old, they got to be five pounds, because as soon as they start laying that female growth stops.
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Ops.
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And I'm looking for that five pound mark knowing that they've got another six months at least to hit breed standard weight and to get to that six and a half pound point that's going to take some more time.
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But if they're not at least five pounds when that first egg starts coming, they're probably going to struggle to meet the standard weight.
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And I get some girls who end up being seven and a half pounds, which is way too big.
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So I just find a smaller male for them, fix it in the offspring.
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Good old compensation mating.
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Yeah.
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What method do you use to identify your birds?
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Initially I used zip ties and now I'm into numbered color coded wing bands.
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And that has been a relief to have that sort of organization because I was relying on sorting into pens and not really IDing the individual birds, but using the space.
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But then every once in a while you go out and count, you have an extra one here, and you're one short over there, and now you don't know which bird it was.
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Putting a permanent wing band on there.
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Out of, gosh, over 600 used now, I've only lost one.
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That's a lot better than what was happening before.
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But that's one of the reasons I dropped
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down to one breed, because I'm not going to jumble the genetics if I only have the one breed.
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Exactly Exactly.
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Zip ties are those things are a pain as whereas if you compare'em to numbered wing bands, those are the catch meow in my opinion.
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Oh, and it stays on for as long as the bird.
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You can even leave it on there while you cook the birds.
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So you can go back and identify the cook carcass to notes and compare that.
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Oh, I do.
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Yeah.
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You can get
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down, once you have all the meat off and you're seeing the actual skeleton itself, you can add even more notes to that bird's file.
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If they're numbered and you know exactly who is who and each bird has a little file, now you can really dig into details.
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I sat down at the dinner table with my notebook and made notes on the bird that I was feeding.
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I'm sorry, I just had this flash into my mind, but I can envision Mandy's husband saying, Honey, what's for dinner?
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And she would come and say, 5 46 and dumplings.
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Yeah, 3719.
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I, I just couldn't help myself.
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Sorry.
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Don't worry.
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I know I actually do that, Rip.
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That's a real thing.
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We've talked about how many chicks you hatch.
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Yeah, go ahead.
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Go ahead.
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I was able to point out, so Esther had come up.
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Earlier this week to pick up a rooster.
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I've also used wing bands, but as soon as I decide on my keepers for sure, which is like five to six weeks is just the right age to slip the ABA leg bands on.
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So I really like those and especially your tip that I picked up a couple of years ago about putting that wing band upside down when you put it on.
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When we were going through the selection process and Esther was holding the bird, she just looked down and.
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It was pointing upside down, but right side up for reading.
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And I'm like, remember that episode of poultry keepers 360 about three years ago.
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So
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the quick reference of a leg band is pretty nice because the wing bands, once they have feathers on, you got to go digging for it.
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They're gone.
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I find with the wing bands, especially I'm up into the J and K size wing bands or sorry, leg bands now, which are, thanks to breeding and nutrition I'm there.
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But.
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With a good pair of spotting glasses, even from my chair inside, I can see out through my screen and, mate 30 yards away and I can read the leg band numbers on the birds with a good pair of field glasses.
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A man after my own heart.
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But most of the time, I can identify them.
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I'll grab my glasses and I'll go, I bet you that's so and I'll zoom in and I'm like, yep, turn, yep, okay, yeah, that's you, huh.
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You can and even on whitebirds, like y'all have, you can still identify little bitty traits about a bird.
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Body shape, conformation, sometimes the way they walk or their chickenality, the way they interact with the birds around them.
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I know which bird is which out in my yard, but my flock is still small enough where I manage them to that level.
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Mandy, when you talked about how many birds you hatch each week, but how many birds do you think you grew out?
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Over the course of a year, a 12 month period of time.
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I try to hit 400 minimum, and that gives us at least 200 freezer birds, and we're good for eating at least 125, 150.
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Some years, if we start smoking them six at a time, We might eat most of them ourselves.
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Cause I, I got into doing smoked chicken and then shredding the meat, multiple birds at a time.
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And then putting that pre cooked meat into Ziploc bags and putting it right back in the freezer.
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Oh, that'd be great.
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Super easy.
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Already prepped chicken that stores more efficiently than a whole carcass does in the freezer.
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Sure.
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And for a smaller family, that's more appropriate than, sometimes taking a whole bird out of the freezer.
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Me and Lolly have that challenge where it's just the two of us and we can't finish a whole bird.
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Oh, we can't, we can eat one a day if we put our minds to it.
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We shouldn't finish a whole bird, I should say.
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Mandy, one thing I don't think I have ever asked you, so here it comes.
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Hold on to your hat.
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What are your long term flock goals?
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To keep a good thing going and to not, it was such a struggle every time I needed to start a new flock.
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And I did that pretty often either because we moved or because I just didn't care for what we had.
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And so I would start thinking about all these different breeds and which one I wanted to bring in next.
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And then figuring out how to source them and where they should come from and then I get them.
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And it was so inconsistent that one of my least favorite things to do is go chicken shopping.
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So I picked up breeding so that I was in control of producing the birds that I wanted to have.
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And now that they're doing that performance, And now that I have a pretty good feel of how to keep them going, I just, I want to avoid breeding into a corner.
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I want to avoid, there's a lot of problems that I want to not have again.
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And I just want to keep them going steadily and not trying to rush anything, working at their pace while we eat really good.
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And I don't have to worry about shopping for chicken.
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And you bring up some really good points there.
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Starting over is a pain in the rear and maintaining things can be a bit of a pain too.
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I think some people are, Oh, I'll just go down and get a pair of chickens and I'll get them to lay some eggs and I'll hatch some chicks and I'll be set.
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If you're going to responsibly and ethically breed chickens, there is an awful lot of moving points.
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It's a lot more complicated.
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I thought you could just hatch eggs.
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You can, but you don't make any progress.
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You're not going to get very far in two or three years.
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You're just not going to have a flock.
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If you have any kind of expectations out of your birds, those expectations are managed through breeding.
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Yes.
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Because otherwise, if you don't do it and you skip it, things will fall apart.
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Things will.
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devolve almost back into their natural, like if you're not paying attention to growth rate, you're going to lose it.
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If you're not paying attention to rate of lay, you're going to lose it.
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And if you grow out 30 pullets and 15 of them can't keep up because they were from eggs that were just hatched and the performance of the mothers was unknown.
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If you don't have that consistency built into that flock, especially if you start from diversified genetics.
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Yes.
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If you start from Very diverse genetics, then that needs sorted and refined down into consistency because otherwise they're just going to be all over the board.
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And some of those qualities that when we lose them, we can lose them a lot faster than we can correct them and get them back.
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Yes.
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That's very true.
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Took me a while to learn that, and I finally realized, hey, this is not working for me.
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I need to focus on a lot more things at one time.
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It's a challenge, and it's hard, but man, when it all comes together, it makes it so worthwhile.
00:16:35.394 --> 00:16:44.894
That's how I ended up with that big barn full, because not only do I have my different age groups, there's little different reasons of why those birds are together in each of those pens.
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And when I'm looking for those generational improvements, that next generation of birds, if they gained what I was after and that pen behind them, then I'm looking at something different to keep out of the females coming after those.
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So I end up with the whole assortment of available trades.
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And then I spiral them through each other through the male side, but I have these developing female families.
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And then now that consistency is starting to come into play.
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And now my cull cockerels, once they're in a shrink bag, they look identical to each other more often than not.
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I've seen some of the pictures of those bagged birds that you post.
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They, there is remarkable consistency that I often think, I hope people realize what effort It took Mandy and how much effort and time and really money went into her being able to produce birds like that, because that's quite an accomplishment.
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And every time I try birds from somewhere else and I get through the carcass photos, I'm like, not a single one of these is just like another.
00:17:53.089 --> 00:17:54.940
But there just wasn't any consistency.
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Nine times out of 10, I would just default back to what I was already working on.
00:17:59.259 --> 00:18:06.960
And I might bring in, 20, chicks from somewhere else and grow them out and find one bird.
00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:14.549
That's just applying selection pressure generation after generation and, choosing what you want.
00:18:14.990 --> 00:18:21.430
And as I started to see how important that was, and I started getting more rigid about it, more ruthless about it, more.
00:18:22.035 --> 00:18:26.174
focused in it, and then the results started compounding on each other.
00:18:26.174 --> 00:18:27.744
And I was like, Oh, it's working.
00:18:27.746 --> 00:18:29.914
Oh, it's neat.
00:18:29.914 --> 00:18:30.394
It's so
00:18:30.394 --> 00:18:31.045
rewarding.
00:18:31.095 --> 00:18:31.994
It really is.
00:18:32.005 --> 00:18:32.525
Yeah.
00:18:32.545 --> 00:18:38.974
In genetics, we call that allele stacking and polygenetic traits, but let's not confuse the topic.
00:18:39.595 --> 00:18:45.174
As Cary Blackman would say in redneck and ease, I just called that yee haw, it worked.
00:18:45.175 --> 00:18:55.464
If you got a whole big pile of goodness and you keep the bad stuff out and you keep a good pile of goodness, you can't help but succeed.
00:18:56.224 --> 00:18:56.565
It's just
00:18:56.565 --> 00:18:59.884
And then you set up some local friends with your insurance birds.
00:19:00.065 --> 00:19:00.444
Yeah.
00:19:00.474 --> 00:19:03.615
I'm always looking for a reason to disqualify birds.
00:19:03.615 --> 00:19:06.265
So at the end, I just have the best bird standing.
00:19:07.065 --> 00:19:10.134
Here's a question for you, Mandy.
00:19:10.934 --> 00:19:14.035
You've been breeding breasts now for what, seven years or so?
00:19:14.805 --> 00:19:15.275
Yeah.
00:19:15.404 --> 00:19:19.894
How have your birds changed over time since you started?
00:19:20.694 --> 00:19:24.565
Oh, they've changed a lot in the shape and the growth rate.
00:19:25.365 --> 00:19:29.694
The diversity they had initially is pretty much gone.
00:19:29.704 --> 00:19:36.174
Now they're pretty consistent and it's getting pretty tricky to tell birds apart from each other, with the exception of their combs.
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Every single one of them has a different comb.
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