Feb. 25, 2024
Reading, Understanding, And Applying A Written Standard-Part 3
In this episode of the Poultry Keepers podcast, John Gunterman, Mandelyn Royal, and Rip Stalvey discuss various aspects of written poultry standards and their interpretation, including tail selection, body capacity, leg structure, feet, and keel alignment. They emphasize standards important for breeding for the optimal traits that contribute to the bird's health, functionality, and meat quality
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WEBVTT
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Hi, I'm John Gunterman, and I want to welcome you to another episode of the Poultry Keepers podcast.
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Joining me in the studio are Mandelyn Royal and Rip Stalvey, the rest of our podcast team.
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We're looking forward to visiting with you and talking poultry from feathers to function.
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Okay, we've talked about the backs, now let's move a little further down the bird and talk about the tails.
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You know, you have to think about the size, the shape, the angle of the tail carriage, and the spread of the tail.
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And those are all defined in the standard of perfection.
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So, Mandy, what's your thoughts on selecting for tails?
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So when I look at the breed standard, it's going to first mention the angle of the tail, and the tricky part of that is the bird is going to change that angle as it moves around based on how it's standing, so you can't make a snap decision on tails.
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And they also can change over time too.
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So what they look like at six months old might be different than what they look like at a year and a half old.
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So I'm learning to be patient on tails to see what they're really going to turn into.
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And I'm only looking for what's an outright flaw to a tail.
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Like if it's a wry tail, split tail, something like that, you can see that earlier, but it might also show up later.
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So tails are something I'm just trying to be patient in looking at.
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Yeah, I agree with you.
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It takes a little bit of time for those things to.
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To really develop and settle in.
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It's really helpful to watch them just in their natural habitat to get an idea of where their tail is in general, because it'll change based on what's going on in the environment.
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If there's predators around the tail's gonna do one thing.
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If there's, if there's anything above them, they're naturally, the tail set's gonna drop.
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You know, that's why I don't have a nice little viewing pen with a top on it, like Mandy does, because when I did, I set one up for the camera so I could get a downward shot, and as soon as I did, I saw my Chanticleer's tail drop maybe 10 degrees.
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It makes a big difference.
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So, in the show, I mean, I'm sure that's what they refer to as coop conditioning, to get your Bird to show properly, but as it gets accustomed to being in a cage.
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You take a bird that's been running out and you put it in a show coop, it's going to almost instantly change the way they look.
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I know Sue Dobson's Red champion up there at the Ohio national.
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If you looked at that bird in the coop, you saw that his head was kind of shrunken down to his shoulders.
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His tail.
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was going downhill instead of being level like it should be and That was because they had set bantam coops on top of the large fowl coops and anytime you do that, it's gonna make them hunker down
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Yeah, so it's also important to look at them in all their different areas Don't only base your opinion off of when they're in a viewing cage.
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Don't only base your opinion on When they're out in the field, you want to see them in every scenario to get an idea of what's really going on, and then you want to find out what angle and shape and length and all of that you're supposed to have for your particular breed, because every single one of them wants a slightly different variation.
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Yes, you bring up a good point there, in measuring tail angles, and okay, we'll use Bresse for an example, their back should slope from basically their shoulders back to the tail.
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have a downward slope to it.
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Do you measure the angle of the tail from the horizontal plane, or do you take into account the amount of slope in the back?
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At this point, it's kind of both, depending on the overall balance I'm seeing from the bird.
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With where they're at in development, I've got some other stuff to pay attention to first before refining tails.
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So long as they're not squirrely or too thin or otherwise wonky.
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It's something I'm looking for later in the actual particular angles.
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I've got other stuff to fix.
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The standard actually prescribes that it be measured from a horizontal plane, as if the back were level.
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I'll have to file that tidbit back for later.
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And if your particular breed has a flat back, or is prescribed to have a flat back, that makes it a little easier.
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Yes.
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Reds are really easy to evaluate tails because they have that long level horizontal back.
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Yeah, that would make it easier.
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You were talking about looking at at your birds when they're doing different things.
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Sometimes I've been known to go out there with a video camera and just turn the birds out that I want to evaluate and just sit there and video'em as they move around, as they scratch.
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I want to, I want a natural movement.
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I want them to feel comfortable, to feel relaxed.
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You can do more to evaluate birds that way than any other way that I've found.
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Well, and you can go back and reference it later too.
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And you can check out some other details like what their legs are doing, what their wings are doing, how alert they are, watching their behaviors.
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There's a lot to be seen when you're just observing and then if you video it.
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Now you've got references to go back to if you need to.
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And you were looking at a video of some Chanticleer and we'll talk about this in a minute, and you spotted something going on with the legs that I didn't see.
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And I'm like, oh, yeah, you do get flock blind.
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So having somebody else take a look at something, you know, you spotted it right away.
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Okay, we talked about tails and evaluating those.
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Oh, I did have one more tail comment.
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Go for it.
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One of the things I'm looking for is for the back end of the tails to be open rather than pinched.
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And then what that looks like is when you're looking from the backside of the bird with like a head on shot of the rear, if those tail feathers touch each other and it's real tight, that can indicate a narrowness that's on the backside, that's not just the tail.
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Like once you put your hands on them, you can confirm it, but I'm looking for.
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Almost like a tented shape there, where there's an openness between either side of those tail feathers.
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The old timers used to call that a teepee shape, because if you look at the bird from the rear end, it's got that elongated V shape.
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You can rest assured that that's tied in to the width of the back, most of the time.
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That's mirroring the structure that's ahead of it.
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Yeah, and you can look at the legs.
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How far are the legs apart?
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The wider the legs are apart, the greater the width of the tail will be from side to side.
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So the spread of the tail is directly tied, at least to the the latter half of the body capacity.
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Oh yeah, and hey, you brought up something good, and that's The next thing I think we need to talk about is body capacity, what it is, why it's important.
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And how to look for it.
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John, what are your thoughts?
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You need the basic room for the organs to fit and do their stuff naturally.
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So, too tight of a body, too narrow.
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I equate everything to the kitchen.
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So, I see some things that are you know, torpedo shape, like torpedo rolls.
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They're kind of narrow at the front and narrow at the back and broadest at the shoulders, but it's too pinched and that's gonna cause all the internal organs to be stressed.
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I like to go for this cinder block shape where I've got, you know, a lot of room for the hen to have her organs and do her reproductive thing and you know, roosters can be roosters.
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They need to be able to defend their flock and be able to carry themselves and ward off predators or at least warn of them.
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I had somebody ask me one time, well, why do I need to be worried about body capacity?
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I said, well, body capacity dictates so much else that goes on in a bird, rate of growth.
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It's the frame.
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It's, it's what everything is built on.
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You can't put two pounds of poop in a one pound bag, as my grandfather used to put.
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Remember that even during egg laying, once it's into the What do they call that?
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The calcification process?
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That egg is in there spinning, and turning, and moving down through the laying track, and if it's tight, then it's gonna not function probably as well as it should, and it's gonna want a priority of space that can affect the other organs, especially if you get them too fat.
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That further causes additional inside constriction.
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And you might see some problems coming from poor structure, poor capacity.
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You could have torpedo shaped eggs, or you could have golf ball shaped eggs.
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And that's going to be a reflection on the body capacity.
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Well, with where the laying equipment is, it's right up underneath the spine and you can even have poorly shaped eggs that are flat on one side if it's pushed up into that back so when the egg gets laid it'll look pretty normal until you turn it to one side that'll have like a flat spot on it.
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Another thing is that body capacity is linked to if you have females suffer from getting egg bound, where they have, they can't actually lay the egg because it's, the egg is so big and they have that physical blockage there between the pubic bones.
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That can cause you some real problems.
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It can cause you to lose some of those birds.
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You'll absolutely lose them because if they prolapse once, they're going to do it again.
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Yeah, well then, you need to lose them.
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Yeah, they shouldn't be part of the breeding equation.
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That's for sure.
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Nature selects pretty well for us.
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We're, maybe the one's messing it up because we're always, I think, trying to go, Oh, this is a really nice bird.
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Let's give her a chance when you should have maybe put her in a stew pot a long time ago.
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There's not any one trait that is worth sacrificing the important things for.
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It doesn't matter what their head is like, what their comb is like, their color.
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That all is secondary, at least to me it is, when you're looking at those more important utility traits that help with their health and function.
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So Rip, there's a couple of terms that I'd like to clear up from the standard that talk about heart girth and sorry, my brain's not quite working yet but let's start with that one and, you know, there's two or three more I'm sure we're gonna work our way around to.
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Well, to me, heart girth And I like to measure that when I'm evaluating birds, I'll put my thumb on the very top of the back, up near the neck, and then I'll put my middle finger, underneath the bird on the bird's breast.
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That'll give me an evaluation of how deep that chest cavity is.
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And then I, of course, so top to bottom, top to bottom and side to side at the front of the wing.
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Is that in front of the wing?
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Yes, I do it in front of the wing.
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And the greater the heart girth, the more efficient that bird becomes at processing feed.
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Do it, just being able to live, in other words.
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It's it's directly linked to the bird's overall quality
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The vital organs, they call it the heart girth, because that's pretty much where the heart muscle is.
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It's just like if you were measuring it on a A horse or a cow or something like that, heart growth is important there, just like it is important in chickens.
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I like how thoroughbreds are so deep in the chest because they're working hard and
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Yeah, the heart muscle needs room to work.
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Heart muscle, lung capacity.
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It's all tied into that.
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Thanks for watching!
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00:12:51.972 --> 00:12:53.082
Now, back to our show.
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Thanks for watching!
00:12:58.605 --> 00:13:02.835
Well, we covered the depth of the body and how important that is.
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And so if we're just working our way down the bird, then we get to think about the straightness and the width between the legs, because that's what the whole body is standing on.
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Yes.
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And you know, like I mentioned before, if you've got a good wide bird, you're going to have a well formed tail with a nice spread side to side and top to bottom, although I realize that's kind of a cosmetic thing, but that spread in the bird, between the legs.
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Is related to heart girth, it is related to body capacity, and you want legs that are straight, top to bottom.
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Because if they're turned in or cow hocked, as folks say that's indicating a bird that's wider at the top than it is kind of down at the bottom.
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Knock kneed.
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Knock kneed.
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Those are the ones that have leg problems, have trouble walking.
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And they can also be bow legged, too.
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And that's the opposite problem.
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And those, those are structural defects, and those should not be bred forward.
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Exactly.
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And it's easy to evaluate, if you're watching your birds, if they turn and walk directly towards you, or directly away from you, it becomes readily apparent if those legs are straight, or if there's a problem with them.
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Yeah, the more you look for it, the more you see it.
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And I've also noticed that the legs, and how they're set, and where they're positioned on the body, and If they're coming down bowed in, there's almost always a very steep and sharp V shape to the keel that's very narrow, more often than not, and that's a problem I've noticed on most birds of most varieties I've tried.
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Like, it's almost like the underside of the bird is getting completely neglected.
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Well, so many people They really pay attention to the top line of the bird, or let's say, the top half of the bird.
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Because it's easy to see visually.
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And they forget all about the The equally important is the bottom half of the bird when viewed from the side.
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Well, for dual purpose and for table, the underside is even more important if you're worried about what it's going to look like in a shrink bag.
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That's the meat.
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That's the
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breast.
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Yeah, that's the part that's turned up for display.
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If they're narrow or pointy or sharp or otherwise not looking very meaty, that's the first thing you're going to see as soon as they're in a shrink bag.
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Absolutely and amount of body fleshing is something we need to touch on too, because if you don't have good body fleshing, you're going to have a really small carcass to eat, because that's directly tied to the amount of breast meat, the amount of thigh and leg meat.
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And also your feed conversion ratio.
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If you're feeding and keeping and housing a bird for that long and it's only producing X amount of meat where the bird right next to it is producing, you know, 125% in the same time space and feed, you know who's more efficient?
00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:21.759
Well, and if you've already accounted for your environment, your husbandry methods, and you've already ruled out feed as either helping or hindering what's going on.
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If you know you're on the right track with everything, but that fleshing still is not there, then that's when you start looking at the genetic influence and if they're even going to be able to produce birds that have a better condition, and I've experimented a little bit by taking a really meaty bird and breeding it to one that wasn't that great to see how that would kind of spread forward in the hatch results.
00:16:45.149 --> 00:16:56.409
And, when there is a genetic tie, you might only see 25 to 50 percent of them as being as meaty as the one parent, and then the others are as not meaty as the other parent.
00:16:57.210 --> 00:17:06.190
Which was interesting confirmation to not be tolerant on poorly fleshed birds for the sake of other traits.
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I know it's not worth it.
00:17:08.819 --> 00:17:13.529
To me, in a way, this almost goes back to what we were talking about when we first started.
00:17:13.964 --> 00:17:17.305
And that's the importance of the balance of the bird.
00:17:17.924 --> 00:17:24.325
You've got birds that are shallow breasted and pinched in, tucked up in the rear, it looks out of balance.
00:17:25.125 --> 00:17:25.454
Mm hmm.
00:17:26.255 --> 00:17:34.934
So for the first couple of years, maybe the birds that actually would look best in the shrink bag are the ones you want to breed from instead.
00:17:35.734 --> 00:17:37.204
That's what I did initially.
00:17:37.244 --> 00:17:37.474
Yeah.
00:17:37.474 --> 00:17:39.244
You put your lesser quality birds.
00:17:40.045 --> 00:17:43.474
When we're doing restoration forestry, we call it low grading.
00:17:43.859 --> 00:17:52.039
Your forest where you're out, you're doing single tree selection worst first, you're taking the worst out first and only leaving your best trees to grow and mature.
00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:56.470
So you're, you're always building the best possible forest.
00:17:56.480 --> 00:18:01.440
It, I see a direct correlation here, single bird selection, worst first out.
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:05.059
And by the time you're done, you just have great birds.
00:18:05.059 --> 00:18:06.890
And you're like, Oh, you know what?
00:18:06.900 --> 00:18:09.970
You look the most like this bird and you both meet the standards.
00:18:09.970 --> 00:18:14.430
So you can have some conjugal visits and I'm going to collect your eggs and we'll see what you do.
00:18:15.230 --> 00:18:15.680
Okay.
00:18:15.859 --> 00:18:17.190
Oh, we were on legs.
00:18:17.990 --> 00:18:19.950
Let's move down to the toes.
00:18:20.029 --> 00:18:23.380
Oh, Toes.
00:18:24.180 --> 00:18:25.619
Toes can be frustrating.
00:18:25.970 --> 00:18:29.839
Especially as soon as you get your incubation right.
00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:31.829
At least for me, toes cleared up a lot.
00:18:31.829 --> 00:18:42.039
I was culling for crooked toes unnecessarily because there is a direct correlation to incubation temperature accuracy, especially in the early development stages.
00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:45.759
And if it's not that, it's riboflavin.
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:55.950
Nutritional things can affect it, the incubation can affect it, you have a lot of legwork to rule out things before you can pin it to genetics.
00:18:56.750 --> 00:18:56.819
Right.
00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:08.960
Well, and you know, you were talking about nutrition, and it's important to remember that it's not just the nutrition we feed the chicks, it's the nutrition that we feed the breeders.
00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:10.720
Absolutely.
00:19:11.059 --> 00:19:19.230
Because if they don't have good nutrition bases They can't put all the nutrients those developing embryos will need, up until they hatch.
00:19:19.829 --> 00:19:25.319
A human finds out she's pregnant, bam, prenatal vitamins, folic acid especially.
00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:32.039
You know, the essential amino acids become even more essential when you're building an offspring.
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I don't care what species it is.
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And that's, that's going to help epigenetically set the chick up for success because as it's being developed, it has access to all these things.
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So it's going to breed forward better and stronger.
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It's going to, it's going to come out of the egg with a higher hatch weight.
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Initially, which is going to translate to its entire life.
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I heard somewhere that if you see nutritional issues prior to 10 or 12 weeks, it very likely came from the adults being deficient in what they were able to put into that egg for that chick.
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It's like if you do get crooked toes or a wry neck or something.
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Look at the onset.
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Is it before or after two days, three days?
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Is it before or after, you know, a week and a half to two weeks?
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It'll tell you whether it was, I don't want to say prenatal, pre shell or post hatch.
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What is the proper term for that?
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I feel so non scientific.
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I don't know.
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I'm sure there is one.
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There probably is.
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Pre hatch.
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You know, talking about straightness of toes, I got a question for you guys.
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If the rear toe twists around forward, what's that called?
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Duck foot.
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I got one right.
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Does that mean it's initially coming off the shank straight back and curves back?
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The whole placement is off.
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Okay, because I've seen them come straight back and then curve back around.
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Duckfoot is when that toe is coming off almost at a right angle to where it should.
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So it should come straight back.
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If you look at your chicken footprint in the snow or in the mud or whatever is soft ground around you, it should come straight back in their gait naturally.
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Oh, that'd be a good way to test them out.
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Scatter some flour on a smooth surface, set your chicken to walk on it, and it'll tell you where that toe is.
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Or just wait till it snows.
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The way it's been going, pretty much anywhere in the country is likely to get snow.
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Let's talk about straight keels.
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Straight keels.
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You've been selecting hard for this, Mandy.
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So hard.
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I'm so sick and tired of seeing that flaw.
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I've seen it in every breed I ever put my hands on.
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Mostly because of how I was sourcing my birds because I like to make things more work than they need to be but They the keels.
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Oh, man there's a lot of different shapes they can be.
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You want them straight and smooth and not bowed inward not bowed outward just a nice straight Even probably long too.
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There's not too many that should have a short keel, but measuring them and getting your hands on them, that's the only way you're going to know what you're looking at.
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Rip, how do you measure your keels?
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Thanks for watching!
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Thanks for watching!
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