June 20, 2023
Mastering Poultry Nutrition and Effective Flock Management with Expert Jeff Mattocks
Are you tired of struggling to understand poultry nutrition for your flock? We've got your back! We sat down with Jeff Maddox, a poultry nutritionist with 26 years of experience, who shared his invaluable insights on reading feed tags, avoiding byproducts, and choosing the right feed for your birds. Plus, Jeff offers his expertise on breed stock and culling strategies to help you manage your flock more effectively.
In our conversation with Jeff, we uncovered the importance of culling 75-50% of your birds annually and the emotional challenges that come with it. Timing hatches correctly and potentially selling excess birds to the backyard chicken market are also key to maintaining a flock. As we dive into the different stages of poultry development, Jeff shares crucial information on the nutritional needs for each stage, including the right amounts of protein, carbohydrates, fat, fiber, lysine, and methionine.
Don't miss the chance to learn from an expert and improve the health and wellbeing of your flock! Find out more about supplements for poultry nutrition, such as poultry show and breeder supplement powder, and explore Jeff's book Niche Poultry - Feeding and Management. Thanks for joining us on this informative episode of the Poultry Keepers podcast!
You can find Fertrell's Poultry Show and Breeders Supplement here.
Jeff Mattocks Nice Poultry" book is available here.
Email Jeff Mattocks with your poultry Nutrition Questions: jeffmattocks@fertrell.com
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00:00 - Poultry Nutrition Simplified
14:28 - Breed Stock and Culling Strategies
19:45 - Nutritional Needs for Chickens
34:35 - Poultry Show and Nutrition Products
WEBVTT
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Nutrition is one thing that impacts every stage of our bird's lives.
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But do you get confused by all the different types of feed and the feed analyses?
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Well, in this episode of the Poultry Keepers podcast, jeff Maddox will help you penetrate the curtain of confusion on poultry nutrition, music Folks.
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Jeff Maddox has a real gift for being able to take a complicated subject and simplify it so that it's easy for you to understand and apply.
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That's right.
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John.
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Jeff is hands down the best poultry nutritionist I have ever met.
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Not only that, he's also willing to work with small breeders like you and I, and that's a rare thing today.
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You know, Jeff and I originally recorded this presentation you're about to hear two years ago, but it's just as relevant today as it was back then.
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So let's get rolling.
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Now, here's Jeff.
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I've been working poultry nutrition now for 26 years.
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I'm unlike other poultry nutritionists who work for the large integrators.
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I actually work for the small farmers.
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So, whether it's people with three chickens in their backyard or up to 10 or 15,000 chickens, but they're pretty much raising them outside open air, moving them around in fields, more of a natural way of doing things.
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And I do a lot with the organic folks who prefer to, you know, keep their birds in an organic fashion.
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So, coming at it from that standpoint, you know, we've always I've always felt that if I overfeed the birds or give them more than what the bare minimum requirements are, that I can keep them healthier and they function better and they reproduce better And they're just all the way around more fun to have.
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You know, everybody knows that when your birds are healthy they're a lot of fun.
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When they're not, you just you're pulling your hair out trying to get it under control.
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It's a pain.
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I'd rather pay forward ahead of time and try and keep them as healthy as possible than try and work from behind.
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you know, and I watch a lot of folks out there and they go to whether it's tractors, supply or wherever their garden center or their farm center is and they're checking prices, right?
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They're not checking the contents of the bag.
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They're not checking the nutritional levels.
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They're not looking at the ingredients in there, right?
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They're looking for $16.95.
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You know, if they see one for $22 and one for $16, you know which one they're going to buy.
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Eventually that comes around and bites you.
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I encourage everybody to read the tags, look at the nutrient levels, understand what you're reading.
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If you need help with that, reach out to me.
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you know, take pictures of the tags, email them to me, right?
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I'll tell you which one is full of garbage and which one is going to be the healthier choice for your chickens.
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And do this for a lot of folks, okay, so it's not a problem.
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I'd rather see people have good, healthy chickens.
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And you know, the worst thing I do is open up Facebook and I go to a couple of different poultry groups and people are talking about this sick chicken and that sick chicken.
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It's just no fun at all And it takes the fun out of raising chickens when you know, when you go out to a group of sick birds.
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But you know, you asked me to talk about nutrition a little bit.
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you know, going up through the different phases and kind of what to look for or what I'm.
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you know what I'm formulating for, you know.
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first off, try and avoid byproducts.
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okay, you know byproducts are put in feeds to keep, to make them cheaper.
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but people don't understand.
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they have no nutritional value.
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They're not adding anything to that feed for the bird, all they're doing is diluting it down to get the price point down.
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A lot of the folks that I'm working with currently are actually seeing that when they feed a higher nutritional value without byproducts higher nutritional value feed without byproducts they're feeding 20 to 25% less per day and getting better results.
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okay, so the first number one failure that I see and this isn't just in the poultry world, it's everywhere is some people make this assumption that all feeds are created equal.
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So if it says 16% layer, it's the same as the 16% layer beside it and the one beside that and the one beside that, and they're not.
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So learning how to read between the lines on the ingredients is really important.
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Look for as many whole grains when I say whole grain.
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whole grains were used to process the feed, whether you're using a pellet or a mash.
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look for as many whole grains When you see the word byproducts.
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that should be a red flag too.
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That means that they're diluting it down.
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You know, and now over the years, working with folks like URIP and other breeders I've been working with breeders more intently over the last 10 years, breeding birds and shofal, and you know the high end exotic fowls, their nutritional requirements, can't be purchased over the counter at a local feed store.
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Nobody's making a feed.
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for a truly good feed for shofal or breeding, as I've dug into it and I've worked with breeders over the past years, the nutritional values, particularly in the vitamins and the amino acids, need to be about 20% higher than a regular backyard chicken.
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Okay, just you know the basic laying end that somebody's going to have in their backyard.
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they're going to do fine with tractor supply or whoever's.
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you know 16, 17, 18% layer of feed, but it's not going to put the plumage on and it's not going to give the attributes you know those distinct attributes to a breeding type chicken.
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It's just not.
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they're not going to reach their full genetic potential.
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So when I say that, it's like if you're picking a chick starter, instead of picking an 18% chick starter, you should be looking for probably a 22 to 24% game bird starter, again looking at those ingredients that are in there and looking at the levels.
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For instance, you should be looking for almost a 6,000 vitamin A units international units of vitamin A per pound of feed.
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All right, most chick starters out there are only running at 3,000.
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So it's about half of where it needs to be.
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The fowl that we're talking about today developed slower than the commercial birds.
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They're not made to be, you know, finished in eight weeks.
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they're not, you know, they're just a different breed.
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Their feed intake is actually a lot less than a lot of the commercial or domestic fowl out there.
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So we have to get more per bite than you know for our type of chicken or our type of fowl, we have to get more per bite than what most feeds are offering out there.
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So, pretty much all the way through each one of the feeds, we want to run it between 5,000 and 6,000 international units of vitamin A.
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I'd like to have 1,500, actually 2,000 international units of vitamin D.
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These are things you can look at on the tag.
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These are required by law to be on a tag.
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If you see a chicken feed tag that doesn't have these on it, it's not legally labeled and you probably need to keep looking.
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So if they can't even follow the basic guidelines for labeling requirements, chances are that there's something else missing Vitamin E.
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it's going to be really hard to find, but I like to have 50 international units per pound Calcium levels.
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should you know for young and developing birds whether it's starter grower or developer, you want about a 1.25 on your calcium level, so your bottom would be your minimum B1, your maximum B1.5.
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Phosphorus is a big corner that a lot of feed companies cut because phosphorus is not cheap And I like to see a phosphorus level running around 0.75 to 0.5.
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It's going to give you better bone formation.
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you know, working with breeders, i hear about crooked keels and I hear about different things like that.
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A lot of that's coming to not enough or the wrong kind of minerals being used.
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Some of that can be avoided by hitting the right mineral contents, you know.
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then you roll into your amino acids.
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Some are going to guarantee they have to guarantee methionine and lysine on a show or breeder foul should be at 1.1 and the methionine level should be 0.45 or higher.
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Actually I like 0.5.
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Now they're going to give you minimum guarantees, which means that's not their actual amount.
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They rounded them down to make sure that they hit their requirements.
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So chances are they're going to be about a half of not a half a percentage point, but they're going to be about 10% higher than what's actually on the label.
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So it's going to give them some protection.
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Each state is required to do a feed inspection.
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So twice a year they go to a feed manufacturer's feed stores, any places that feeds are being sold, and they'll take samples.
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Sooner or later you're going to see this little white sticker on the side of the bag you bought that says sampled by the state of Florida in your case, or whatever state you're in.
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That's going to happen And the states have a little bit of a quality control guarantee built in for testing to make sure that things are being done right, and that's a good thing.
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So starter feed, depending on how it's put together and hitting those amino acids I just talked about, for sure, one a, 22, 23, 24.
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Now the variation on that protein that I is how heavily plumaged is the bird?
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So if you have more of the exotics with a lot of plumage on them, right, or you need better feather, look at the methionine level because that's going to be your key driver, for you know how that feather turns out.
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But also total protein is going to make a difference.
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Now don't go crazy.
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When I say total protein, that doesn't mean I want you to run out and buy some 28% gain bird starter, because too much protein is just as bad as not enough.
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The kidneys of the bird has to process all excess protein through the kidneys.
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If you continue to burn them up by putting too much, exceeding their protein requirement for an extended period of time, you're actually causing kidney damage in the long term, which is going to shorten the lifespan of the bird.
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for if you look like you have a question.
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No, i've just one thing I'd like to point out here.
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I've got several friends who raised Phoenix and have these ultra long tails on the males, and I can see where this was.
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information would certainly benefit them because those feathers are in a state of constant growth.
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They never really mature.
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I've got some friends and they all have four or five foot tails on their males easily.
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but I just in my own mind I wonder how much more impressive would those birds look if they were on this kind of a diet.
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You know, one was really good super nutrition, just some food for thought, yeah it is.
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And so unfortunately, breeders and show folks out there again, they can't find that perfect feed and even if they did, a lot of them would reject it based on price.
00:11:56.490 --> 00:12:06.549
But those Phoenix, once they get past about 28-30 weeks of age, most of their body is fairly filled out.
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Okay.
00:12:07.009 --> 00:12:14.664
So keeping them on this really high protein level feed is not necessarily the right answer.
00:12:14.664 --> 00:12:19.355
It's getting the feed with elevated levels of amino acids.
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So it's developing a feed for the Phoenix and it can be an 18% feed.
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But I might have my methionine levels at point six.
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Now, having extra methionine and extra lysine and extra amino acids doesn't hurt the kidneys.
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At that point it's not going through the body as a protein and it's easier for the body to utilize as an amino acid.
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So, and even the large commercial you know the produce, the pilgrim prides, etc.
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The ticens of the world you know they're reducing protein levels in their chicken feeds and they're putting in amino acids to get the desired results.
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We just kind of have to catch up to this technology with showbirds Interesting, okay, you know they're knocking two points off their protein because soybeans cost money.
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So by manipulating the amino acids more precisely they're able to achieve the same results and save money in the end.
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And the same could be said for, you know, breeding and showfowl.
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You know if we, if we, could find feed manufacturers to work with us, but we're scattered out all over the place.
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Nobody wants to pay shipping.
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You know I could go to a feed mill here in Pennsylvania and say, hey, can you make this showfowl feed for me?
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Yes, sir, make it for you.
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But then till I ship it to Florida and I add four or five dollars a bag for shipping, you know you get it down there.
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And if I came to you and said, hey, i have the perfect show feed If you didn't know me from Adam and I said it's gonna cost you $32 a bag, you're gonna be like what I can go down the street and buy.
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You know, $20 feed, right?
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I've heard that a lot too.
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Yeah, right, and I hear it all the time.
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It's like, you know, there can't be that much difference between your feed and what I can buy down the street for $10 a bag less.
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Well, yeah, there actually can, and there's different levels of feed that you have to be considerate of, right?
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So there's some birds in your flock that may never go for a show.
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They may never go to the fairgrounds, they may never go to a poultry show.
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You're keeping them back for breed stock because they're good, you like them, you know they make a difference.
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And then you know you've got that 20% but are gonna go with you to show 20-25%.
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Do they necessarily need to have the exact same feed?
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No, they probably don't.
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But then when I talk to a breeder and say, well, you can feed this group this and this group that, and they're like I ain't going through all that, that's too much fuss and trouble and I'm not gonna do it.
00:15:04.900 --> 00:15:24.875
And you know, and I'm gonna feed them all one feed and of course they feed the cheaper feed because you know, and everybody keeps way too many birds, right, they like this and they like, they like this cock, and you know they have a hard time Calling and they have a hard time, you know, selling off birds.
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I get attached to them, whether it's emotional or financial or whatever, and they just can't, you know they can't trim down the herd, so to speak.
00:15:33.269 --> 00:15:50.230
But you know, for pretty much all I work with all livestock and kind of a basic rule of thumb is to call out 10 to 20 percent annually At your most expensive time of year.
00:15:50.230 --> 00:16:04.759
To feed them right, you need to go through, look hard, make the make the hard, judgment calls and whether you sell them or Whatever you do, but calling that, calling them back down to a set number, is Very beneficial.
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How you get people to do that is beyond I.
00:16:08.825 --> 00:16:25.399
Hopefully you've got some words of wisdom on how to do that, because I I you know, i really don't, because there seems to be two camps and one group wants to call their birds too soon and the other camp Don't really want to call anything.
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It seems like I you know, i'll get folks Contacting me and I've got this four week old chick.
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Which one should I keep?
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How do I know that they're not mature?
00:16:34.942 --> 00:16:35.826
Yep, you can't tell it.
00:16:35.826 --> 00:16:40.961
Four weeks from sitting around listening to circles, you know you can actually do a.
00:16:40.961 --> 00:16:46.302
You can probably do an initial call Looking for defects at around eight weeks.
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It's pretty hard to do it much before eight weeks.
00:16:48.707 --> 00:17:07.601
Then you have a second selection somewhere between 12 and 16 weeks And pretty much after that you're gonna ride it out for close to a year to see how the bird fully develops right, yes, and, and some of those slow to mature breeds like Jersey Giants You may be looking at two years before.
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What you see is what you've actually got right.
00:17:10.736 --> 00:17:21.921
But if you can knock that down by 50%, you know, by the six-month period you should be able to see a lot of the defects You know by six months of age, not all you know.
00:17:21.921 --> 00:17:25.387
There's stuff that's gonna develop late, just like you said, and I understand that.
00:17:25.387 --> 00:17:29.994
But You know most people are carrying way too many birds.
00:17:30.977 --> 00:17:31.598
I agree with you.
00:17:31.598 --> 00:17:43.243
I wish I could get people to understand what I call the rule of 10s For every 10 chicks you hatch, you're gonna get one that's really decent enough to keep and move your program forward.
00:17:43.243 --> 00:17:47.780
Or for every 100, you're gonna get 10, but and?
00:17:47.780 --> 00:17:49.980
and Some folks just can't.
00:17:49.980 --> 00:17:56.295
Well, friend of mine says, if we, if we all ate our, we'd be in a lot better shape.
00:17:58.598 --> 00:18:03.388
Well, there's other people out there with backyard chickens that would love to have your.
00:18:03.388 --> 00:18:12.785
You can still sell them to people in the neighborhood that aren't gonna show and compete against you, right, just put an ad on Craigslist, facebook marketplace.
00:18:12.785 --> 00:18:14.698
It's not that hard.
00:18:14.698 --> 00:18:25.306
You know they're out there and if you get your hatching around to the right time of year, you know, first of April everybody's looking for chicks for their backyard.
00:18:25.306 --> 00:18:36.189
So If you can get your timing right to get your hatches off and do that initial call, you know by the first of April, you have no problem selling them whatsoever.
00:18:36.209 --> 00:18:43.801
I Just see people trying to keep way too many chickens and then they complain about their feed bill And I'm like, well, why do you have so many chickens?
00:18:43.801 --> 00:18:48.434
You know I'm working with a lovely lady down in Texas right now.
00:18:48.434 --> 00:18:51.320
She had over 300 chickens in her yard.
00:18:51.320 --> 00:19:00.881
She wasn't focused on anyone particular breed, she was just kind of all over the place because she loved chickens and I'm like all right, so you need to make this decision.
00:19:00.881 --> 00:19:04.858
Are you gonna be a breeder, are you gonna just have chickens?
00:19:04.858 --> 00:19:09.749
because you can't do both, okay, right, you need to make the hard, conscious decision.
00:19:11.939 --> 00:19:15.096
And then I said I'm fine with either one I.
00:19:15.096 --> 00:19:24.125
You need to decide what works for you, but you can't keep a bunch of yard birds around for entertainment And try and be a serious breeder at the same time.
00:19:24.125 --> 00:19:29.368
There's too many risk involves, there's too many cost involved and you just got to get.
00:19:29.368 --> 00:19:32.538
You just got to narrow it down And focus on something.
00:19:32.538 --> 00:19:35.625
So and she is, and it was a.
00:19:35.625 --> 00:19:41.006
It was a rough night when she Called a third of her birds and, you know, sound them all off to be sold.
00:19:41.797 --> 00:19:45.506
But yeah, she sees the light at the end of the tunnel and it'll get better.
00:19:45.727 --> 00:20:00.678
But Jeff, if you would Talk a little bit about the various stages our birds go through, from chicks to growers, to two adults, and and what should our folks be looking for, nutritionally speaking?
00:20:00.678 --> 00:20:03.986
for and we just start with Dale chicks.
00:20:04.366 --> 00:20:06.712
Yeah, dale chicks, i started on that road.
00:20:06.712 --> 00:20:08.961
22, 23% protein.
00:20:08.961 --> 00:20:12.693
Make sure that those amino acids are where I talked about earlier.
00:20:12.693 --> 00:20:13.936
On lysine.
00:20:13.936 --> 00:20:18.780
Point five on methionine Try and look for the higher vitamin levels right.
00:20:18.780 --> 00:20:24.040
The most you're gonna find on the shelf It's about 4,000 International units per pound.
00:20:24.040 --> 00:20:27.095
It's okay, that's a good starting point.
00:20:27.095 --> 00:20:30.363
You know we can look at adding supplements to that if we need to.
00:20:30.363 --> 00:20:34.954
That those numbers stay the same all the way through the rearing stage.
00:20:34.954 --> 00:20:40.371
So 4,000 at starter, 4,000 at grower, 4,000 at developer.
00:20:40.371 --> 00:20:48.962
And Whether you're going to layer or whether you're going to a holding feed, you know depends on your time of year.
00:20:49.635 --> 00:20:54.007
You don't want to feed a layer feed with high calcium year-round if your bird isn't producing an egg.
00:20:54.007 --> 00:20:58.223
Feeding that extra calcium is not benefiting anybody.
00:20:58.223 --> 00:20:59.707
It's actually working against you.
00:20:59.707 --> 00:21:04.682
So Working with breeders like you rip what I do, is it okay?
00:21:04.682 --> 00:21:10.438
so I ask you what breed you have and what is What is that maturing date?
00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:19.699
So if you say, okay, it's 28 weeks till till my bird gets to basically Sexual maturity or that point.
00:21:19.699 --> 00:21:21.844
You know they're not fully developed but they're.
00:21:21.844 --> 00:21:24.388
They're pretty much at what we would call mature.
00:21:24.388 --> 00:21:32.383
I divide that 28 weeks by four To tell me how long they need to be on starter right.
00:21:32.383 --> 00:21:45.647
So for a 28 week bird maturing, seven weeks on starter, seven weeks on grower, seven weeks on a developer and Then you know, then they're moving on in it to do whatever is next.
00:21:45.647 --> 00:21:51.903
So I break that up into, you know, three I'm sorry three equal segments.
00:21:51.903 --> 00:21:54.674
So you're gonna be nine weeks on each.
00:21:54.674 --> 00:22:03.028
That way I know that I'm hitting that nutritional need for that bird, you know, at each one of those stages of developing.
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:06.727
So you start now with 22, 23 protein.
00:22:06.727 --> 00:22:09.112
Then you're going to drop to on a show.
00:22:09.112 --> 00:22:13.609
I would want to be no less than 18 to 20 on a grower feed.
00:22:13.609 --> 00:22:24.711
Developer feed is going to be 16 to 18% protein without the high calcium, and that's again focus on better amino acid levels.
00:22:24.711 --> 00:22:26.751
That's where your feathers coming from.
00:22:26.751 --> 00:22:28.846
That's where your body developments coming from.
00:22:28.846 --> 00:22:38.230
Hopefully you know if your feeds are being made somewhat local to you, they're being balanced for the right carbohydrates based on your temperature and your climate.
00:22:38.230 --> 00:22:40.286
That would be really nice.
00:22:40.286 --> 00:22:44.611
But your starter feed should be well, it's not on the tag.
00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:50.113
So how do I tell somebody you need 1300 kilocalories per pound, right?
00:22:50.113 --> 00:22:52.666
I don't know how to explain the energy part of it.
00:22:52.666 --> 00:22:57.369
A lot of feeds have a bunch of added fats added to them.
00:22:57.369 --> 00:23:03.707
They have higher energies And all that's going to do is start the formation of fat deposits.
00:23:03.707 --> 00:23:06.192
Okay, at a very young age.
00:23:06.192 --> 00:23:07.923
And I don't really want a fat.
00:23:07.923 --> 00:23:16.630
I don't want fat starting to even begin to be deposited until the bird is about two thirds through that development phase.
00:23:16.630 --> 00:23:19.286
You don't want any early age fat.
00:23:19.286 --> 00:23:24.851
So you want a good exercise area so they can run some of that off.
00:23:26.060 --> 00:23:28.709
And you in Florida, i would want a lower energy.
00:23:28.709 --> 00:23:37.989
I would trim that energy because people don't understand the chicken actually eats for its energy needs every day.
00:23:37.989 --> 00:23:48.171
So, based on the temperature, the living environment and everything else it's going to eat, the number of calories it needs to sustain itself on a given day.
00:23:48.171 --> 00:23:51.689
So on hotter days they eat less, on colder days they eat more.
00:23:51.689 --> 00:23:54.407
And that's just the nature of a chicken.
00:23:54.407 --> 00:23:56.385
A lot of creatures are actually that way.
00:23:56.385 --> 00:23:58.682
All right.
00:23:58.682 --> 00:24:04.461
So we got the starter, we got the grower, we got the developer and then you got to decide if you're.
00:24:04.461 --> 00:24:14.486
But so for a show file, pretty much going to be 17 plus 18% is pretty much going to be the maintenance level.
00:24:14.486 --> 00:24:18.548
Protein Again, i want at least a 1% lysine.
00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:20.865
One point two is better.
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