May 6, 2024
Mandelyn's Feed Trial-Part 1
In this podcast episode, Jeff Mattocks joins us to discuss a feed trial Mandelyn Royal is conducting. This trial uses a custom, breed-specific feed, designed by Jeff, for Mandelyn’s Breese. We explore the purpose of the trial, its mechanics, and potential outcomes. It includes insights from Mandelyn and Jeff regarding the development, monitoring, and optimization of feed for improved growth and performance of the birds.
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Hi, I'm John Gunterman, and I want to welcome you to another episode of the Poultry Keepers podcast.
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Joining me in the studio are Mandelyn Royal and Rip Stalvey, the rest of our podcast team, and we're looking forward to visiting with you and talking poultry from feathers to function.
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This is going to be a really good show.
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Honestly, this is the first sort of breed specific feed trial I think I have ever heard of, and y'all are to be commended for pulling this together.
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And when I say y'all, I'm talking about Mandelyn Royal and Jeff Maddox is with us today in the studio, and Jeff, delighted to have you with us.
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Welcome aboard.
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Happy to be here.
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First question, and I'll, let's start with Jeff and then Mandelyn.
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What is the purpose of this breed specific feed trial?
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What were y'all hoping to accomplish?
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We know that the Bresse is a uniquely growing bird.
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It is a dual purpose.
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But I felt that most of the commercial feeds that are available on the market are not adequate for the right growth and performance of the Bresse as well as many other, similar dual purpose birds out there, right?
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Speaking to Mandelyn, it's I, I dangled the carrot and I said, Mandelyn, I can make a feed for you that will knock two weeks off of your grow out.
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And your birds.
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And she's no way you can't do that.
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No way.
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I'm like, yeah, not a problem.
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Easy money.
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So that's why we did it.
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And this is the first of many, right?
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So, people listening to this, that have the tools and the desire that Mandelyn has to improve their.
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their breed, or their genetics, or their strain.
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Alright, I'm happy to do the research and design a feed based on that specific breed, and this isn't my first rodeo.
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I've done this for, like the freedom rangers, the red bro, other similar birds just by making small adjustments.
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And Jeff, something that I've experienced in working with you is you specialize in working what is, working with what is locally available.
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Correct.
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Rather than
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shipping things in across country.
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It doesn't make sense for somebody living in Vermont, like John, to ask them to get, these very unusual ingredients that may be only in the Pacific Northwest, or somewhere else.
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So, when a person can share with me what they have easy access to, in their local communities I do my best to stay within those parameters when designing a feed.
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Fortunately, Mandelyn is close enough to a feed mill that I currently work with.
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I know their inventories.
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I know what they have.
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And their abilities.
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So she has access to a custom feed within a reasonable distance.
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Now, reasonable is different for every individual.
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So some people want to do it with Amazon and their computer mouse.
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And some people are willing to drive up to an hour to go get high quality feed.
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So it just depends on your definition of reasonable.
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For me, it's an hour and 45 minutes under two hours is reasonable.
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Especially now that I've been using their feeds for over two months and I'm seeing differences and improvements, I'm going to keep making that drive.
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Right, and eventually, eventually, hopefully people in your neighborhood will want to use that feed as well and you can have it dropped off or delivered to you.
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But, we'll see where it goes, right?
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Starting new feed systems or new drop points or new anything.
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You have to see where it evolves over time, right?
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The first six months is always the most painful, and gradually it gets easier.
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Mandelyn, what intrigued you about this opportunity to do this trial?
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Because I have tried everything locally available for feed with varying degrees of success, and with how the birds grow, it's been different than any other breed I've had.
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So when Jeff said, I can do this for your breed and fix your feed problems, I was like all right, I'll try it.
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And then We're halfway through the trial now and Jeff was right and it looks like there's going to be some earlier harvest and I'm going to probably split them up into three different age groups and start at 14 weeks, 16 weeks, 18 weeks, because I also want to check and see the fat development and the fleshing, the skin texture even is important on the breed.
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Like they're not supposed to have a thick, heavy skin.
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It's supposed to be.
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There's a lot of table aspects in there that can vary by age, but I'm definitely seeing birds that I'm probably gonna be able to get a really good table result from at 14 weeks.
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For a purebred, dual purpose bird, that's pretty neat.
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That's pretty good.
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What was your processing age before, roughly?
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16 to 18 weeks.
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And then we would see anything from, because the ones we put in the freezer are the worst examples that I know I'm not going to need for breeding consideration.
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We'll go from 3 pounds up towards, Five pounds since I am doing several different breeding groups and comparing and contrasting genetic pools and looking at their express traits and how those breed forward.
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Like I've nerded out in the whole thing and the feed is a major part of seeing their true genetic potential if their nutrition is dialed in.
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Very interesting.
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It's going to be, I've been following along on some of your posts.
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About the feed trial as you go through week by week, and it's been interesting to me.
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And I think it's going to get more so as you get closer to finishing out that trial.
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And I'm working on like a final results with all of the data there.
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The weekly updates are really hard to keep going with my work schedule and everything.
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So I'm compiling three different spreadsheets and then once I have.
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That harvest thing, then I'll have all the numbers of what it cost to get them to what age, what each bird was taking in, and then how that data helps to do some of the breeding selection for growth, because I have the history of each bird since they are wing banded.
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I can check the weights and how they developed specific to the individual.
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And that's pretty telling too, especially when looking at their gain percentages and who grew how much and when.
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It's neat.
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I'm excited to get, it's almost going to be like a little paper by the time I'm done with it.
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Have you started to see individual development curves on specific birds?
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Yeah, similar to how pediatrics, rate babies.
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Oh, my kids in the 70, whatever percentile at.
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This stage of development.
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So putting up a simple line chart of the different birds, it's very easy to see who your outstanding performers are.
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If you have that regular data and can compare them.
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It makes you want to
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learn how to make a graph.
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Oh, if you haven't graphed it yet, that's what I'm talking about.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Graph it and boom, your superstars will show right up on that graph.
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And.
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Mandelyn and Jeff both, just talk us through a little bit about what is involved, the mechanics wise of setting up a feed trial and conducting a feed trial.
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I know there's got to be a lot of record keeping, not just simply going, filling up the feeders and away we go type thing.
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My side of it's easy, right?
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For the most part, right?
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I design the feed formulation based on, information I've learned from mandolin and other, doing some research on the Bresse.
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I go out there and I can look for, what, how is the breed supposed to perform, and I just get the feed formula set up.
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When we talked about this, it was weekly weighs.
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Some of the big stuff for me was to actually see if we saw new or unusual genetic expression that she hadn't seen previously with other feeds.
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Um, other producers have made the comment that, when they've made the switch over to a higher quality feed or a custom feed, all of a sudden they started seeing things they didn't even know were in their genetic lines.
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I was curious about that but the primary goal is to, for, in my mind, the primary goal is how many pounds of feed, what's the carcass weight, and how fast can we get them there, right?
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I'm coming at it mostly, 80 percent of my ambition is, To improve performance, overall performance.
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So far I've been doing weekly weigh ins and weighing the feed as they get it.
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But I haven't yet done a round of breeding from adults that have been on the breeder.
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Formulation that you came up with, but I have had the adults on Kraut Creek 17 percent layer, and I saw big differences in egg quality, and the hatch results so far from that's been really good.
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The hatch rate actually went up.
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Fertility is 100 percent in 5 out of 6 pens.
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And as I see these chicks combined with the chick starter with the 23%, they are fleshing in there's a big difference just at three days old.
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And as they continue to grow, and I do handle them to get a feel for how they're fleshing in.
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And then with the genetics, it's really important to watch and see if that fleshing holds for the duration of growth or if they start to favor bone growth and lean out a little bit while they grow in height and then flesh back in later, which is usually after 18 to 20 weeks.
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And by monitoring the different genetic pools and how they're getting fed and finding those birds that are meaty for the duration, those are the ones we really want to see because they really bring us that earlier harvest.
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Some people will start doing it at 12 weeks even.
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It's a smaller bird, so it's not going to feed a family of six, but it's a lot more efficient.
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And I'm trying to take as many notes as I can and look at all the different variables.
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And so far, I haven't seen anything outside of normal for express traits.
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I haven't seen any new colors pop up.
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I haven't seen just better growth is what I'm seeing so far.
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So I'm curious to see if I switch over to the breeder formula for the adults.
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How long do you think they need to be on that feed before I start hatching from them, Jeff?
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Normally, I'm looking at, you'll see improvements at 14 days, but it usually takes a full 30 days or four weeks to, for everything to really kick in to give you that, better egg, better fertility, better, not, how can we make it any better than what you just described, five out of six pens are a hundred percent fertile.
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I don't know.
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Are we going to see any greater improvement?
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I don't know.
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Then you can beat 100%.
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I know.
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There's some way to quantify vitality and vigor of the resulting chicks.
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I think that with this growth data that you have, And you compare this batch to the next batch, you're going to see an incredible improvement because that's what hooked me was feeding this breeder and show supplement to my breeders the first time and seeing the resulting chicks.
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I was like, all right, these guys are on to something.
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I'm going to listen.
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And then I went down the whole rabbit trail of mixing my own feed.
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I'm happy to have someone else do the mixing part for me.
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You just don't have the time.
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Even with two hours, I've seen your operation.
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You're going to spend a lot more than that mixing your own feed weekly.
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And there's storage considerations, having that much bulk material.
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On hand and then grinding it fresh and then, yeah that's an investment in infrastructure as well.
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Jeff what are the things that you considered when you did the formulas for the Bresse?
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I don't think I ever asked you that.
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Like what did you take into consideration?
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Mostly vitamin levels, and actually number one was getting the right amino acid balance, right?
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Getting the lysine right, getting the methionine right, getting the threonine right.
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Okay, so that, that was my first focus.
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Then knowing that it was more of a heritage slash dual purpose breed, we weren't on the starter feed really that long.
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But, getting them off to that really good start was really important.
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And while I, I watch other people's posts about starting on 24, 26, 28, 30, percent proteins.
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They're trying to get the amino acids through just higher protein levels.
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And then you got the crazy people who want to feed cat food, dog food, catfish food, to get the same thing, and there's an easier way to get there besides feeding, alternative feed or foods to your chickens.
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But yeah, so first focus was actually amino acids.
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Second focus was on vitamin levels, having increased vitamin levels.
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And then.
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Third focus was just filling in all around that just not everyone understands the growth characteristics of a heritage breed versus like a Cornish cross or, commercialized breeds and it's significantly different.
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It's that's the angle I came at it from.
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And
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I'm going to do a round two trial.
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Cause I'm just calling this the season of science and I'm just going to do trial after trial and collect as much data as I can.
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And phase two will be the custom blends versus what we used to feed.
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And then if I do a third trial, because I see a lot of people trying to use meat bird feed.
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And I've always been under the understanding that meat bird feed is formulated and designed for birds that are not going to live longer than eight weeks, so I've never used it for anything heritage because I expect to have them at least.
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It used to be 16 to 18 weeks, but now it might be 14.
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Jeff, we talked, or you talked about it, and John also touched on it, where you live and the feeds that are available to you.
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Could you do this, for example, could someone in the Pacific Northwest, could you formulate a feed for them that would do the same thing?
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As a feed you formulated for Mandelyn?
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Yes.
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Within reason I can, no matter where you live, because I'm doing custom feed formulations for a person in Sweden, for instance.
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And I do several in Australia for breeders, folks like us.
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And it doesn't really matter where you live, it just takes a little extra work to find what is locally available, geographically and figure out how to put it into a chicken feed that it makes sense.
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Not everyone has corn.
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They don't grow a lot of corn in the Pacific Northwest.
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We use a lot of alternatives up there, use a lot of barley, a lot of wheat cut back way back on the corn they don't grow soy up there accessing soy is more difficult, so we reduce the amount of soy being used yeah, feeds can be adjusted geographically and for the breed for pretty much anywhere.
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You have to have something to feed them that makes sense, but yeah, we can adjust for pretty much anywhere.
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And we actually need to adjust based on climate, right?
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So every climate is a little bit different, big difference between Florida and Ohio where Mandelyn is and into Vermont where John is.
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All those things are in the back of my mind when I'm formulating a feed, trying to get the energy level right, in balance with the protein, and get all the other nutrients just properly balanced for the environment and the bird or the breed.
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It's a little bit of a juggling act.
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But it is not the same.
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I can't feed a bird in Texas the same that I'm going to feed the bird in Vermont.
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Or we're going to see deficiencies in performance whether it's breeding, egg laying, growth, whatever.
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So energy levels are completely different.
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And when energy levels are different, protein levels, vitamin levels, and everything else are different.
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Jeff, so what does each kind of category or component in the feed?
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Play as far as a role to the optimal growth of the bird at whatever stage of development.
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I'm not sure.
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I know exactly what, I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, John, but I've
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looked at all my formulations and I've noticed they all have the same basic base level of certain things.
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And then you alter my corn and wheat and barley and oats based upon where I need to be
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and my oil
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a lot for nutrition in the winter, especially.
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So the ingredients that you just identified are primarily energy ingredient, and knowing depending on stage of growth or perform, production their energy level changes.
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And so actually for a heritage breed, you don't want an excessively high energy, but you need enough energy, but when they're in the starter formula, they're generally under, they're either under a hen or they're under some sort of a heat source.
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Okay.
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I keep the energy level a little bit lower at that point.
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Everybody needs to understand, a chicken eats every day for its calorie requirement.
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Okay based on its size, based on its environment, it will eat a specific number of calories to keep itself warm, keep itself growing.
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For you, in Vermont, I'll have a slightly higher energy value to compensate for cooler temperatures in a cooler environment.
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Whereas, when we do a custom feed formulation for Rip, or someone in the South, I'm going to hold back on the fats, I'm going to hold back on the corn, I'm going to use more things like alfalfa meal that have low energy, I'm going to use oats that have lower energy, so I'm still getting a consistent amount of feed, and I have a consistent appetite for the bird based on those climates and then Once I know where the calorie requirement is then I want the bird, so we as humans all think about percentages like, 23 percent protein, 18 percent protein, 20 percent protein, etc.
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Chicken doesn't care one thing about the percent of protein in a feed.
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So I need the bird based on its total live weight and its stage of production to consume A certain grams of protein, right, actual weight of protein, and that protein needs to be very high quality so the efficiency of the digestion of the protein is at the highest level possible.
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So that's where balancing those amino acids is more important than the total protein number.
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If we reflect back when I said, I see people with heritage breeds feeding a game bird or a turkey starter at 28 or 30 percent protein, they're overcompensating because someone didn't balance the amino acids for them, for their breed.
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And for their region.
00:20:19.116 --> 00:20:24.307
Anyway, we went full circle there, and that was a big rabbit hole, but does that
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What happens to all that extra protein?
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It just comes out the backside and is essentially wasted, right?
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The birds have to even sometimes work harder to process and evacuate that excess protein.
00:20:35.646 --> 00:20:39.846
And it causes excess husbandry tasks like ammonia buildup in the poop.
00:20:40.646 --> 00:20:41.517
Perfect, John.
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Perfect.
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You're a hundred percent right.
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So excess protein generally gets excreted in the urate or the urine portion of the manure.
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It has to get processed by the kidneys.
00:20:52.902 --> 00:20:55.791
So now you're making the kidneys work harder than they need to.
00:20:55.842 --> 00:21:07.021
It comes out the backside of the bird and you will have a harder time managing your litter or your bedding and you will fight ammonia smell.
00:21:07.497 --> 00:21:13.386
More when your protein is too high and your amino acids are not correct.
00:21:13.797 --> 00:21:15.047
And it costs more,
00:21:15.396 --> 00:21:16.176
All the way around.
00:21:16.406 --> 00:21:19.237
You're wasting a ton of money, wasting a ton of money.
00:21:19.977 --> 00:21:20.767
Around us.
00:21:20.807 --> 00:21:23.856
Turkey starter is 30 bucks a bag just for the Purina.
00:21:24.656 --> 00:21:30.416
It's not worth it to me to do that because by the time I get those birds up to market age, I've got so much money into them.
00:21:30.416 --> 00:21:33.886
And it also in our area is the land of.
00:21:34.176 --> 00:21:35.946
Three dollar a pound Cornish cross.
00:21:36.747 --> 00:21:44.406
I found by feeding just enough and mixing it up just in time that's the best way to manage my budget now.
00:21:44.977 --> 00:21:53.277
I'm pretty much running at an optimum level, I think, and now it's just fine tuning for daily, as you found, looking at the feeder and going.
00:21:53.656 --> 00:21:55.596
Did the day leave 10 percent or less?
00:21:55.656 --> 00:21:58.777
Do I need to put out a little bit more tomorrow or a little less tomorrow?
00:21:59.166 --> 00:22:00.997
I want to raise very thrifty birds.
00:22:00.997 --> 00:22:04.886
I won't go out on pasture first thing in the morning, not head to the feeder.
00:22:05.227 --> 00:22:08.336
Like your video showed very recently.
00:22:08.826 --> 00:22:10.717
The boys were being lazy in rooster coop.
00:22:11.497 --> 00:22:14.686
When I moved them in there, they were They're seven and nine weeks old.
00:22:15.136 --> 00:22:22.247
And the pullets, as soon as they heard my voice outside, they all started coming outside and exploring and learning how to eat their greens.
00:22:22.826 --> 00:22:24.876
And the boys were just camped out by the feeder.
00:22:24.876 --> 00:22:33.616
So I didn't refill the feeder one day in the morning, and I opened up the door and I chased them all out.
00:22:34.146 --> 00:22:34.586
Go.
00:22:34.666 --> 00:22:35.076
Go.
00:22:35.507 --> 00:22:38.166
They kept going back inside to check the feeder.
00:22:38.166 --> 00:22:50.942
I still hadn't filled it intentionally because I wanted them to get up off their lazy behinds And get out there and figure out being a chicken, because that's where we get a lot of the flavor is by having them on that range.
00:22:50.942 --> 00:22:58.561
If I kept them in a building 100 percent of the time, It's just not going to have that robust flavor that they would if they had gone out.
00:22:59.051 --> 00:23:04.051
By helping them that one day, now when I open the door, at least half of them run outside.
00:23:04.521 --> 00:23:08.692
The other half still want to camp by the feeder and they are getting to be the bigger ones.
00:23:08.751 --> 00:23:11.491
Those are going to be my 14 week dinner birds.
00:23:12.291 --> 00:23:17.422
But that's where you're picking up terroir, or taste of place, and that's what we call it in the culinary world.
00:23:17.511 --> 00:23:35.971
They're out there, on range, they have access to the nature, the bugs, the worms, the plants, and in the finishing and hopefully you're going to get around to this in the feed trials, cutting back that fish protein percentage and getting them out on good pasture for that really great flavor pop at the very end.
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