Aug. 19, 2024
Jessica Watson On Shamos-Part 2
In this episode of the Poultry Keepers Podcast delves into managing Shamo chickens. We discuss their behavior, the challenges of different age groups in brooders, and the importance of enrichment to prevent aggression. We touch on breeding considerations, hatching ease, and differences in raising Shamo compared to other breeds.
Jessica shares her experiences with nutritional needs, including the myth of glucosamine necessity and the importance of a proper diet. Showing Shamo, and training them to pose are covered along with how to transport them to shows.
Finally, the group offers resources for those interested in starting with Shamos, including recommended literature, and discusses the market value of quality birds.
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WEBVTT
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Hi! Welcome to the Poultry Keepers Podcast.
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I'm Rip Stalvey, and together with Mandelyn Royal and John Gunterman, we're your co hosts for this show, and it's our mission to help you have a happy, healthy, and productive flock.
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Oh, this is just another example showing the females versus the males.
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It's very cool.
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I love working with Wheaton for this reason.
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And it's such a pretty color when it's right too.
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It is, and they all, they all get along in the brooder for a pretty I don't really know what's normal because this is my breed.
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And you don't get a long time, you get a good time in the brooder because they're just so personable and they want to be interacting all the time.
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But after about eight, Weeks at two month mark, then you just don't know there will inevitably be a troublemaker this picture on the right.
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And it could be a male, it could be a female who's starting the trouble.
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You don't know.
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Sometimes the females will start it and then leave and just leave the boys to duke it out.
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So you do have to be really observant of behavior with this breed and decide where your line, where are you drawing the line?
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My line is I don't want a bloody brooder.
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I want to enjoy.
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The experience of raising chicks that I'm not constantly having to check or not know what I'm going to walk into.
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So if I have a chick that's fighting that early, I don't even want to wait and see if they end up being the most perfect chick I hatched this year, because I don't want that in my line.
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They have to be enjoyable to raise.
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It's too stressful.
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Should we think about, have you played with any other types of enrichment?
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Something else they can peck at or beat up on, I have.
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I had good luck with that with the seals, and the chamois seem to ignore any type of parakeet toy or side toy.
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They're so into each other.
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I think that's an area I haven't exhausted yet, but they don't seem as easily distracted.
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I'm actually just even wondering something as simple as some bailed alfalfa hay.
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Oh, I've not tried that.
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Just if they can tear apart and eat, right?
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The only issue with the parakeet toys is they tend to be hard and, they can't really damage them.
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It's futile, whereas if you put in a, like a cake of alfalfa hay and just let them tear it to shreds, right?
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So they can take out their aggression on something and watch it.
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Disappear.
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That's a great idea.
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Just an idea.
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Yeah, that's definitely something to try.
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Just something they can beat up on and they're not hurting anybody.
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Yeah.
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That gets us through the slide.
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So now we can get down to some of the nitty gritty what ifs and why fors.
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But you've talked about it a little bit and obviously with a bird of this size, there's got to be some pretty unique management considerations.
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From the time they're hatched until the, until they're mature, but what about And what about hatching?
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Do you find them easier, harder, or about the same to hatch as other breeds?
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I don't think they're any more difficult to hatch than other breeds.
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And having hatched something like Ceramas, which are just like mind boggling and frustrating to a lot of people, they're just, it's pretty standard procedure.
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I dry hatched my Shamows.
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I had great fertility and yeah, I had great luck with these birds with hatching so far.
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That's positive.
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But, then the brooder does pose some challenges.
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Especially, it depends on what size you want to have, what size flock of shammows you want to have.
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Because you can't combine age groups.
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Maybe you can, but you're taking a big risk.
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So having your, having a plan before you just go, these are really cool birds.
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I'll plan it out as I go.
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That's just not a good idea.
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Doesn't work well.
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And I saw you had those, that group of chicks were in a livestock watering tub.
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Do you brood them like that from day one on up or?
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No, I actually, I have a larger, that was, I ran into this problem this year.
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I have a larger brooder and I had really high hopes that I was going to be able to integrate.
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Age groups.
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And it just didn't happen, but I had a backup plan, which was the one that was in the picture.
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But then I quickly had to make sure I had a grow out pen.
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Cause I hatched for a lot, for most people, hatching 22 birds is not going to be a very big number, but when it comes to shamos that you might have to separate every single one by, a couple months.
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You hope not, but that's a worst case scenario is playing for the worst case, then room becomes.
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Slim pickings pretty quick.
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Yeah, I hadn't thought about that, but yeah, you could run out of space real quick.
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Yes, and I, some people have success keeping a bachelor flock of grow outs, but then, inevitably I see You know, there's death and I just prefer to avoid that altogether if possible.
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Sure.
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So Jessica, one of the tricks that other game breeds, game type fowl breeders are using is when they do the free range is they put a mature cock in there with them and no one challenges, right?
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He keeps everybody else under control.
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So there's something about, he knows he's the dominant.
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And he doesn't, there's nobody really in there for him to challenge that's worthy.
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And yet all the uncockrolls.
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are not dumb enough to start a fight because he runs over and breaks it up.
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That sort of thing.
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So I don't know if you've tried that yet.
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With the free range birds, because I have a, my American game are my range flock and Yes our flock leader, his name is Hook and he does, he puts the kibosh.
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So I have four grow out stags that are free range right now.
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And then I have two grow out, no, three grow out stags that are penned separately, and I am just so happy with the progress of the free range birds compared to the penned birds.
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I'd like to be able to replicate more of a free range environment.
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With a little bit more control because I can't feed these birds how they need to be fed when they're free ranging.
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They're fed like everybody else with the flock is fed.
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And then, so that there, that poses the problem, having the older bird with younger birds and feeding them appropriately.
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Oh, there's always problems.
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What about getting these birds ready for show?
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And I'm, I would imagine there's some special considerations going on there.
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What a scene that is, my dear husband, as I'm bringing him into the bathtub, because it's too cold around here in November to give these half naked birds a bath outside.
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So yeah, my bathroom is a scene of ancient combat chickens and towels, and it's really something.
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Fortunately, they seem to be humbled by being wet, and they don't really fight it.
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But I think the hardest part is transporting them, and it's a, it's just a big bird.
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They got just keeping all of these parts clean, but then I look at these people traveling with white birds and think I probably have it easy.
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Yeah, you do.
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That's the reason I don't have whiteboards.
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That doesn't look fun at all.
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But the stags, they get disturbed.
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They do get very disturbed when they don't have a pullet with them.
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I tried to do some cage training differently this year.
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And I tried for weeks and it was just unsuccessful.
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This bird was just getting worse and worse.
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And then as soon as I gave him a pullet, he just is totally subdued now and has no problem being confined.
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So far when I've traveled with my birds to shows, every stag travels in a large dog crate with one pullet and they stay.
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Very calm on the ride.
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Anytime I've tried to box one alone, they get a little bit frantic and frantic for seven hours before you get cooped.
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It's not really okay.
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I have a question here.
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This strikes me as a breed that would benefit from being posed right at a show.
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Oh yeah.
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Do you work with.
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Training your birds to pose.
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Oh yeah.
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I work with treats.
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Yeah.
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You've talked about that before.
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So they're all, anytime they see me walk up to the thing, their heads are up there.
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One has learned to stick his head out of the drop pen.
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He has to turn it sideways, but now he sees me coming and he's even he's ready.
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So they have personality and character.
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Sounds like they're pretty easy to pose train though.
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Oh yeah.
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There's not a fearful bone in their body.
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Which is good and bad, sometimes.
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Sue asked about them flying well, and as far as flying goes, I, like I said, I keep my the platforms that they roost on up.
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They're about 30 inches.
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And they hop up to those with no effort.
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Usually it's all legs but they will not go over a fence.
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Not yet.
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I, they would have to be really spooked and probably young and lightweight at that point.
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They won't go over.
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Interesting.
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Thank God.
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We've got a question back up here and we're getting to that part of the show.
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And Barbara asked, so you do single residents per bird, but you just said that you're doing like a pullet with a cockerel or a hen with a rooster with a cockerel, just to keep them calm, just so they're not alone.
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I have not had luck.
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That was my intention.
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And I think Katie has done it successfully.
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And maybe it's just who I am, that I am not tolerant of a pacing bird that is not able to look at peace in the day.
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It bothers me.
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If all they can do is take a second to rapidly eat and then pace a fence, it just doesn't seem like the right way for them to live.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, their gameness.
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So if they see another bird and another nearby, they're gonna pace, whether it's a hen who's walking around outside, or whether it's a rooster three doors down.
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Yeah, and pretty much all the game breeds, I've watched, and that's just their behavior.
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And they're, They don't really calm down.
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They're just high strung.
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On this note, Rip, I have a question for you, as a judge.
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I've done this.
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I don't know if I was supposed to do this, but I did it anyway.
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If you walk up and your coop cards are in such a way, but you're all in a row, because I have one breed, Can I decide where my birds go in that row, or do they have to stay the way the cards are laid out?
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They're laid out by, of course, breed, and then variety, and then sex.
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You'll have all the cock birds here.
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Maybe three or four, and then maybe two or three hens, and then maybe three or four cockerels, and five pullets.
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They can go anywhere they want to in that, or anywhere you want to put them.
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In that small range.
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Yeah, you can't put like a hen in the middle of a cockbird group.
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Okay.
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That's something to think about for planning for future shows, because to keep one of these people, Birds calm, and again, they can uproot this coop from the table very easily.
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I put them by whoever their pen mate is, and then they're okay with that.
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But, if I choose to bring more birds, that's going to add more complications to my methods.
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Yeah.
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I want to see them uproot the pen and be loose on the floor.
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I want to see that system.
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They can only be outdone by a guinea, loose on the floor, right?
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That's my favorite.
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Guinea on the loose.
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Just wave goodbye.
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Goodbye.
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Adios.
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Susan asked about your nutritional part of it and I don't have your feed memorized, Jessica.
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Do you want to talk about, our, the program that we've put together for bringing them up through?
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Yeah.
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I don't have everything memorized either, but I did fortunately write down a couple of key notes which was number one, that they need an animal protein, and you had suggested a fish meal or wild caught crab meal, something that mimics what their protein source would have been in the wild, and they're large birds, so vegetarian diet probably not going to be successful.
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We had gone over a couple of myths a lot of people supplement with cat food or think that you need a higher calcium because they have a faster bone growth or some people think that you need to keep an extremely low protein for a chick so they grow slower and they don't grow too fast.
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None of these things I've learned have any scientific.
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basis whatsoever.
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We had a 23 percent starter for protein and a 21 percent grower with the lysine at 1.
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25%, I think, and methionine at half a percent or above.
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Yeah, it should have been like 0.
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52, 0.
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53, I think.
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I think it was 0.
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55 percent is what you had my particular Grower at so you remember what the calcium level was I don't I think I did I think I did want your calcium at so any other random chick like you would buy a tractor supply I would be happy with 0.
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85 calcium, but because of accelerated growth, particularly, like the shammo and other birds that grow very quickly and they have that growth spurt normally I'll try and be at 1.
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2, 1.
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3 calcium just to keep up with that growth.
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So that was one of the considerations that, I'm sure.
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I would've factored in.
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So now I'm curious.
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I'll look at that in the morning when I get to the office.
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But now something else.
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But you haven't had any issues?
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No.
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So here's something that has come up.
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Maybe it's a myth, maybe it's not.
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But people have recommended giving your birds glucosamine.
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If they're not as active as they seem like they should be.
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I have one stag now who is just exceptionally large.
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For his age, and then that was recommended, because he lays down a lot.
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He moves around the yard all the time, but if he's gonna, graze, or do whatever he's doing it on the ground, and he's been like this for a couple of months now, and is How old is he?
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He was hatched I think March 10th, something like that.
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I have seen Similar things with my Reds a lot of times they'll hit a certain point in their development and when they eat, they're Plop down on the ground and just hogging the feed trough.
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I refer to him as my little red feeder pigs at that stage.
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For me, it just looks like he's lazy cause his health seems perfectly fine in every way.
00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:34.389
And he will happily run if he sees me with the feed bin, you're not, okay.
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No discoloration, no swelling of the hock, right?
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That's okay.
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And when he sits on a normal sitting posture, not all the way back on his butt.
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He's not asleep all the way back.
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No, what I mean is I don't, yeah, but if he's on his butt and his feet are actually coming forward out the front of his body.
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No, not like that at all.
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Okay, I just worried about viral arthritis.
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That's where, we want to be careful of them eating anything off the ground.
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Cause they can't pick that up and it'll, it's a bacteria that'll lodge in the hock joint and it slowly deteriorates the metatarsal tendon.
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So that's why I asked.
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How do they pick that up?
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So it's actually, the bacteria is in the soil.
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So you know, when people tell me they're feeding on the ground, I just cringe, right?
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And I want to cry.
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And so it's don't do this people, right?
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It's people do it anyway.
00:16:26.033 --> 00:16:40.614
Yeah, spilled feed, eating off the ground especially if there's a higher moisture content, the bacteria is already living there and they just pick up a little bit of dirt that has the bacteria in it when they're trying to get that lost piece of grain that fell on the ground.
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And it doesn't take much exposure to it.
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Once it gets in the system, it just starts growing.
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And, but the body pushes it off and it, and I can send you a link to it, but it loads up in the hock joint, where it goes from feather to scales right there in that knee joint, so to speak.
00:16:58.408 --> 00:17:01.278
And eventually it makes him immobile.
00:17:02.078 --> 00:17:06.159
Then the only other attribute, but you're saying this is only one.
00:17:06.219 --> 00:17:08.189
So watch, does he high step?
00:17:08.483 --> 00:17:19.183
When you see a bird that really exaggeratedly takes a step leg comes way up high, straightens it out, comes down, like a soldier marching, okay, is the best way to say it.
00:17:19.733 --> 00:17:23.284
And we, that would be more of a sign of gout, okay.
00:17:23.493 --> 00:17:24.854
Nope, and I know what you're talking about.
00:17:24.864 --> 00:17:25.784
He paddles.
00:17:25.834 --> 00:17:28.683
He does look very strange when he runs.
00:17:28.753 --> 00:17:34.213
He paddles like this when he runs, but he might just be very gangly and awkward.
00:17:35.013 --> 00:17:36.894
But I might also be undereducated.
00:17:37.693 --> 00:17:38.374
I'm just checking.
00:17:39.173 --> 00:17:43.554
I think how people tend to like to feed their birds on the ground.
00:17:44.314 --> 00:17:44.574
Yeah.
00:17:44.574 --> 00:17:45.233
Don't do that.
00:17:45.953 --> 00:18:02.203
Yeah, I know it drives me crazy, but when you get a chance to hold him you don't have to pick him up, but just gently feel or massage the hawk joint just to see if it feels more watery or gelatin like than other birds.
00:18:02.644 --> 00:18:04.763
And see if it may be slightly larger.
00:18:05.493 --> 00:18:08.493
You can also check to see if it feels feverish or hot.
00:18:08.834 --> 00:18:09.854
That would be another sign.
00:18:10.653 --> 00:18:12.473
Sorry, I didn't mean to get Is glucosamine safe for birds?
00:18:13.273 --> 00:18:17.943
It is, glucosamine is safe for everything and people are thinking that it's going to help the joint.
00:18:18.104 --> 00:18:40.864
But, in your diets, because we've addressed the appropriate level of fat I'm not worried about it, and all the components are there for good cartilage, good joint lubrication, if somebody was feeding a deficient feed, They would see a response from the glucose of me, but Jessica soon had a comment about your question about shows and how the birds are placed.
00:18:41.663 --> 00:18:47.824
She said it might be worthwhile to check with the show staff and see if they would make a concession on placement.
00:18:48.624 --> 00:18:50.713
I agree.
00:18:50.894 --> 00:18:56.023
As a former show secretary, I would probably be amenable to that.
00:18:56.584 --> 00:19:04.433
I just had to make sure, and you might have to do it as a follow up to know, to let the judge know what's going on and why it was done that way.
00:19:05.213 --> 00:19:10.124
It would be interesting to see how it was received, because change is not always received well.
00:19:10.923 --> 00:19:12.763
But, it's worth trying.
00:19:13.564 --> 00:19:16.233
If you don't know, you don't ever change anything if you don't ask.
00:19:16.624 --> 00:19:17.044
This is true.
00:19:17.084 --> 00:19:20.263
It's not, I'm not asking for a turkey cage, just asking a little different.
00:19:21.064 --> 00:19:22.273
Turkey cage would be nice though.
00:19:22.513 --> 00:19:28.854
Oh Laura Elwood wants to know, do you have any secrets to share about bathing your birds?
00:19:29.653 --> 00:19:34.933
Oh, I'm fascinated to read other people's secrets to bathing their birds.
00:19:35.263 --> 00:19:40.703
Again, I have a hard feathered breed, so it's pretty straightforward.
00:19:40.923 --> 00:19:46.554
I don't have to worry about blowing out down and getting things to lay right and it's going to lay the way it lays.
00:19:46.979 --> 00:19:55.368
I just got to make sure they're fed properly so they shine and that they're housed properly so they're not all broken and frayed.
00:19:55.449 --> 00:19:58.969
And then, I use just a nice, high quality, natural feed.
00:19:59.449 --> 00:20:02.108
Shampoo, conditioner for dogs and it works for me.
00:20:02.909 --> 00:20:05.729
Matt Lamon wrote an article.
00:20:05.769 --> 00:20:11.209
I don't know if I have it or not, but it was a good article on showing and conditioning hard feathered breeds.
00:20:12.009 --> 00:20:13.548
If I can find it, I'll send it to you.
00:20:13.659 --> 00:20:14.618
Yeah, please do.
00:20:14.659 --> 00:20:17.538
It's a unique poses its own unique problems.
00:20:18.338 --> 00:20:22.058
Okay, let's see, we don't have, I think that gets all of our.
00:20:22.858 --> 00:20:36.588
They're actually, they're quite enjoyable to prepare for a show because as long as you get them, if they're conditioned properly from the beginning, they're just going to wow people anyway, like you really can't mess it up at the bathing part.
00:20:37.088 --> 00:20:42.808
How could you not look at one of those shamos and not go, wow, that's a bird.
00:20:43.513 --> 00:20:56.104
Yes, and I more so learn along the way, that taking them from home and then the change in environment at the show and how other birds might be stressing them out or how they behave there.
00:20:56.253 --> 00:21:01.773
That's where all of the problems happen and make them look different is are they confident?
00:21:02.054 --> 00:21:03.153
Will they stand up?
00:21:03.513 --> 00:21:06.653
Are they going to wreck their comb on the cage bars?
00:21:06.673 --> 00:21:08.324
It all happens in the final hour.
00:21:09.124 --> 00:21:09.993
Another question for you.
00:21:10.433 --> 00:21:13.713
I say ol Rip's decided he wants shamos.
00:21:13.993 --> 00:21:17.864
And ol Rip doesn't know doodly squat about shamos other than what he's read in the standard.
00:21:18.663 --> 00:21:22.384
But what are some good resources people could refer to out there?
00:21:22.413 --> 00:21:25.344
Maybe some books, websites, social media groups.
00:21:25.913 --> 00:21:31.814
This is a book that anybody even interested, whether you think you're going to get them or not.
00:21:31.824 --> 00:21:35.564
It's just a really cool book to learn about a totally different side of.
00:21:36.364 --> 00:21:37.493
What's the title of that?
00:21:38.074 --> 00:21:40.963
It's called Oriental Gamefowl and it's Horse Shmud.
00:21:41.763 --> 00:21:42.183
Oh yeah.
00:21:42.983 --> 00:21:44.124
It's an excellent book.
00:21:44.134 --> 00:21:45.743
It's not a very easy book to find.
00:21:45.753 --> 00:21:47.384
It's not a very cheap book.
00:21:47.653 --> 00:21:49.574
But it's got a lot of great things.
00:21:50.084 --> 00:21:53.523
Wow, this is just not as easy as it seems like it should be.
00:21:54.023 --> 00:21:55.574
Got a lot of great photos in it.
00:21:55.834 --> 00:22:02.713
You'll see there's different sized shamos that aren't in our standard, but they are in the Japanese standard.
00:22:02.713 --> 00:22:12.243
They're small, medium, and large shamos, but it dives into More of the details, the coloring, all of this type of stuff and the history of Japanese poultry.
00:22:12.253 --> 00:22:13.193
It's a great book.
00:22:13.503 --> 00:22:14.503
I loved this one.
00:22:14.983 --> 00:22:20.604
There's also this is the unofficial, official shamo lady, Julia Keeling.
00:22:21.153 --> 00:22:25.703
She She's passionate about the bird and she did a lot of research on the bird.
00:22:25.713 --> 00:22:32.614
This book was disappointing in regards to giving me information that would help me on my journey.
00:22:32.784 --> 00:22:36.683
However, it documents some really cool art and history about the shamo.
00:22:36.723 --> 00:22:43.054
If you want to nerd out in that way, this is a cool book, but it's not a lot about husbandry or anything like that.
00:22:43.854 --> 00:22:44.913
And it's also really expensive.
00:22:44.993 --> 00:22:46.394
So if you're dividing your money.
00:22:46.693 --> 00:22:48.104
Go with the Oriental Game Talk book.
00:22:48.604 --> 00:23:05.874
And then Livestock Conservancy, we're actually, they asked me to participate in a DNA study on inherently aggressive birds, so I drew some blood from my birds and sent it in for that, something interesting, and I'm going to help out with the census.
00:23:06.358 --> 00:23:09.128
Oriental game community is it's hard to break into.
00:23:09.128 --> 00:23:12.368
There's a little bit of like secrecy and things for some reason.
00:23:13.058 --> 00:23:14.909
Is there a website for that?
00:23:14.909 --> 00:23:16.798
I know you have a Gamefowl website, but.
00:23:16.898 --> 00:23:17.239
Yep.
00:23:17.548 --> 00:23:20.909
I started that the gamefowlconservation.
00:23:21.558 --> 00:23:25.449
org website, just because I wanted to compile information.
00:23:25.469 --> 00:23:27.588
Facebook's not accessible to everyone.
00:23:27.798 --> 00:23:29.798
There's a million groups out there.
00:23:29.898 --> 00:23:31.519
You can't track them all.
00:23:31.858 --> 00:23:35.068
So I did that and I started a Facebook group.
00:23:35.679 --> 00:23:38.209
Under the same name, Gamefowl Conservation Network.
00:23:38.888 --> 00:23:43.769
And if you look up Oriental Gamefowl in groups on Facebook, you'll find a lot of groups.
00:23:43.848 --> 00:23:46.459
A lot of it is just people showing off their birds.
00:23:46.459 --> 00:23:48.048
It's not a lot of learning.
00:23:48.108 --> 00:23:54.409
It's just not It's just not a, there's not a Poultry Keepers 360 for game foul.
00:23:55.209 --> 00:23:56.249
You ought to work on that now.
00:23:56.528 --> 00:23:57.798
Yeah, really.
00:23:58.269 --> 00:24:03.759
I saw somebody post today in the group that they had found like the Holy Grail or whatever they said.
00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:04.519
Yeah, I saw that.
00:24:04.898 --> 00:24:06.179
It is like that though.
00:24:06.179 --> 00:24:14.128
You're like, oh my gosh, it's a group that actually, is not judgmental, relies on factual information and, people have goals and purpose.
00:24:14.179 --> 00:24:17.878
And that's really, you want a community that has similar goals and purpose.
00:24:18.548 --> 00:24:19.189
Absolutely.
00:24:19.308 --> 00:24:23.058
And folks, her website and Facebook group are both excellent.
00:24:23.689 --> 00:24:24.179
Thank you.
00:24:24.548 --> 00:24:28.699
If you have any interest at all whatsoever, you need to go check them both out.
00:24:29.078 --> 00:24:29.838
It's really good.
00:24:29.838 --> 00:24:34.388
I just highly recommend anybody interested in the breed, just talk to as many people as you can.
00:24:34.618 --> 00:24:37.858
Everyone's going to have different experiences with the breed.
00:24:37.898 --> 00:24:42.078
They keep them a little bit differently, so don't just go based off of what one person said.
00:24:42.548 --> 00:24:45.108
Try and talk to as many people as you can before you dive in.
00:24:45.909 --> 00:24:48.628
Shaggy wants to know if you do table training?
00:24:48.683 --> 00:24:51.794
Once again, the I'm picturing them on a table with me right now.
00:24:52.334 --> 00:25:03.459
I do not just because of how they are, everything I do, grooming, all of this stuff I do on the ground because I want to be able to stand up and be farther away from their face.
00:25:04.259 --> 00:25:04.848
Makes sense.
00:25:05.648 --> 00:25:10.378
Is there anything else you want to add about Shamows tonight?
00:25:11.179 --> 00:25:16.348
As soon as we get off of this video, I will have half a dozen things.
00:25:17.148 --> 00:25:18.858
I thought I was the only one that did that.
00:25:18.858 --> 00:25:19.259
Now, come on.
00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:21.028
I asked you pre show.
00:25:21.098 --> 00:25:37.278
So if somebody listening or watches the show later, and let's say they reach out to you and they want a pair, Our trio, what should they expect to pay for a good quality, good breed, good breeding pair of chamois?
00:25:37.358 --> 00:25:49.663
It's not an inexpensive bird and you do have to be extremely cautious because there's a lot of mixed birds out there and you'll be forever trying to get your bird close to something you could.
00:25:49.903 --> 00:26:10.574
Go and, exhibit with, so I would say not to, if you can help it, going to shows, going somewhere like the National, where there might be enough of a pool of people you can see them in person that would be definitely preferred, and you could expect to pay upwards of 350 for a pair.
00:26:11.159 --> 00:26:11.909
For sure.
00:26:12.429 --> 00:26:18.429
And you're also competing with a couple of different markets of people that might want these birds.
00:26:18.439 --> 00:26:22.669
So you're not only, it's not only ornamental show keepers.
00:26:22.679 --> 00:26:25.249
There's a lot of different types of folks that keep game balsam.
00:26:25.483 --> 00:26:25.963
Sure.
00:26:26.763 --> 00:26:29.703
So a trio would probably be in the$500 range.
00:26:29.963 --> 00:26:36.388
I'm assuming, if you got, I would, if you got a pair for three 50, probably a trio in the five to$600 range.
00:26:36.919 --> 00:26:37.128
Yeah.
00:26:37.128 --> 00:26:38.808
Which does seem extreme.
00:26:38.808 --> 00:26:42.469
But yeah, if you wanna start with really nice birds, I don't think that is extreme.
00:26:42.469 --> 00:26:49.459
You're saying that a lot of folks would have an apoplectic seizure over that price, but when you stop and think about it.
00:26:50.118 --> 00:27:01.278
The rarity of the breed, the quality of your birds, and just all the management and difficulties that goes into trying to raise those things.
00:27:02.078 --> 00:27:04.854
I wouldn't want to think that I could go out and get that.
00:27:05.193 --> 00:27:07.854
Two dozen hatching eggs and raised birds for that amount.
00:27:08.203 --> 00:27:10.334
I'd have a fortune tied up in those birds.
00:27:10.923 --> 00:27:13.134
Yeah, yep, this is true.
00:27:13.544 --> 00:27:20.144
And there's a lot of, you got to really study the standard and know what are common shamo defects.
00:27:20.459 --> 00:27:23.088
Which is going to be a large comb.
00:27:23.388 --> 00:27:24.959
This is in both of these books as well.
00:27:25.269 --> 00:27:29.138
Oversized comb, duck feet slouching wings.
00:27:29.159 --> 00:27:30.788
You gotta know what you're looking for.
00:27:30.788 --> 00:27:34.788
And if you don't see a magnificent bird, then don't pay for a magnificent bird.
00:27:35.148 --> 00:27:37.209
If you just want a pet, then pay pet price.
00:27:37.679 --> 00:27:38.328
That's a good quote.
00:27:38.328 --> 00:27:39.419
I may have to use that.
00:27:40.009 --> 00:27:40.199
Yeah.
00:27:40.999 --> 00:27:43.769
What Susan wants to know what's her average lay rate.
00:27:44.403 --> 00:27:48.354
So this is something I'm gonna do next year.
00:27:48.374 --> 00:27:59.713
I'm gonna commit to my different pens, my young up and coming layers, and then my older birds, and come up with this, because I don't think that this, the information out there is correct.
00:27:59.713 --> 00:28:03.413
I think right now, it's like, they say that shammels lay 90 eggs a year.
00:28:03.624 --> 00:28:05.044
They're some of my best layers.
00:28:05.263 --> 00:28:17.159
I always have eggs on a nearly daily basis from my trio pens to eggs, and I think that's fascinating, because Most people say they're horrible layers, but I have not, I do not have a number.
00:28:17.298 --> 00:28:18.019
I've not done that.
00:28:18.598 --> 00:28:27.828
I would have thought it would have been closer to that 90 egg range, but I think that's spectacular that you're going to do that, but we'll see what winter brings this year.
00:28:27.989 --> 00:28:28.729
They start laying?
00:28:28.929 --> 00:28:32.648
They should have started in May, April, May, like everybody else, right?
00:28:32.798 --> 00:28:33.973
With longer days.
00:28:34.473 --> 00:28:38.034
You're already, May, June, July, you're already six months in.
00:28:38.659 --> 00:28:39.479
So that's 180 days.
00:28:39.479 --> 00:28:41.219
And everybody's molted already.
00:28:41.278 --> 00:28:42.729
All the shammo pens have molted.
00:28:43.528 --> 00:28:45.598
And you're still getting eggs, even though they're molted?
00:28:45.739 --> 00:28:47.148
Yes, yeah.
00:28:47.949 --> 00:28:49.259
Persistent little things, aren't they?
00:28:49.648 --> 00:28:51.608
They are, and double yokers all the time.
00:28:51.648 --> 00:28:53.509
It's got to, let's, it's Jeff's fault.
00:28:53.568 --> 00:28:54.159
It's the feed.
00:28:54.699 --> 00:28:55.828
They're magical shammos.
00:28:55.969 --> 00:28:59.638
We don't want double yokers, so maybe we're overfeeding the adults.
00:28:59.709 --> 00:28:59.949
Overfeeding.
00:29:00.749 --> 00:29:04.509
Yeah, I wonder if you, yeah, we may have to cut back.
00:29:05.048 --> 00:29:08.409
I don't know how much you're giving them, but we probably should have that discussion as well.
00:29:09.209 --> 00:29:19.838
On the feed formulas that I've made for you, like the adult breeders, and again, I don't know, but you probably can do with about three or four ounces per bird.
00:29:20.638 --> 00:29:21.519
Don't overfeed them.
00:29:22.318 --> 00:29:22.788
But they're hungry.
00:29:22.888 --> 00:29:24.568
That would explain your double yokers.
00:29:24.699 --> 00:29:32.588
Even though their size, okay, but that would, if they're, once they're mature, if they're getting, too much protein.
00:29:32.963 --> 00:29:34.294
That's what you're going to end up with.
00:29:35.094 --> 00:29:37.993
That would explain it I'm happy for you, and they're great table legs.
00:29:38.159 --> 00:29:39.798
And I, they're, I'm sure they're table lake.
00:29:40.509 --> 00:29:41.858
I bet they taste really good.
00:29:41.858 --> 00:29:46.148
But hatching purposes, you don't really want those double yolks oh gosh.
00:29:46.648 --> 00:29:46.888
Yep.
00:29:46.888 --> 00:29:47.939
Something to pursue.
00:29:47.939 --> 00:29:53.519
Every time I listen to a podcast, every time I learn something new and I think, wow, gosh, there's more.
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:54.719
I need another spreadsheet.
00:29:54.749 --> 00:29:56.378
I need another touchy.
00:29:57.179 --> 00:29:58.338
We'll get, we'll hone it in though.
00:29:58.388 --> 00:29:59.038
Bless your heart.
00:29:59.538 --> 00:30:04.999
Jessica, I really appreciate you agreeing to come spend an hour with us tonight.
00:30:05.058 --> 00:30:05.739
This was great.
00:30:05.949 --> 00:30:09.729
It was not only a fun show, it was a very educational show.
00:30:09.729 --> 00:30:10.969
It was great.
00:30:10.969 --> 00:30:12.493
And I just loved it.
00:30:13.114 --> 00:30:17.913
We'll have to do this again sometime after you get your grant and all that and we can learn more stuff.
00:30:18.179 --> 00:30:19.058
Fingers crossed.
00:30:19.058 --> 00:30:22.489
I'll start the spreadsheets and then I'll have more details to share.
00:30:23.288 --> 00:30:23.828
Sounds good.
00:30:23.828 --> 00:30:26.618
Folks, thank you for joining us this evening.
00:30:27.078 --> 00:30:29.459
Be sure and join us in two weeks.
00:30:30.038 --> 00:30:32.398
Our very own Sue Dobson is going to be with us.
00:30:32.808 --> 00:30:35.439
And she's gonna bring her breeding partner or partner.
00:30:35.439 --> 00:30:45.209
They work together on Crevecouers, and she's going to be talking about those big black, beautiful crested fowl, so that's in two weeks.
00:30:45.929 --> 00:30:48.848
So until next time, thank you for listening.
00:30:49.269 --> 00:30:50.028
You folks are awesome.
00:30:50.318 --> 00:30:51.318
Have a great day.
00:30:51.929 --> 00:30:53.568
Thank you for joining us this week.
00:30:53.909 --> 00:31:03.058
And before you go, make sure you subscribe to our podcast so you can receive new episodes right when they're released, and they're released every Tuesday.
00:31:03.598 --> 00:31:10.909
And if you're enjoying this podcast, we'd like to ask you to drop us an email at poultrykeeperspodcast at gmail.
00:31:10.929 --> 00:31:13.199
com and share your thoughts about the show.
00:31:13.199 --> 00:31:16.989
Thank you again for joining us for this episode of the Poultry Keepers Podcast.
00:31:17.209 --> 00:31:18.818
We'll see you next week.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.729
00:00:03.100 --> 00:00:13.300
00:00:23.681 --> 00:00:27.350
Oh, this is just another example showing the females versus the males.
00:00:27.370 --> 00:00:28.321
It's very cool.
00:00:28.330 --> 00:00:30.210
I love working with Wheaton for this reason.
00:00:31.010 --> 00:00:32.951
And it's such a pretty color when it's right too.
00:00:33.470 --> 00:00:40.670
It is, and they all, they all get along in the brooder for a pretty I don't really know what's normal because this is my breed.
00:00:41.470 --> 00:00:50.871
And you don't get a long time, you get a good time in the brooder because they're just so personable and they want to be interacting all the time.
00:00:51.371 --> 00:01:00.735
But after about eight, Weeks at two month mark, then you just don't know there will inevitably be a troublemaker this picture on the right.
00:01:00.795 --> 00:01:04.275
And it could be a male, it could be a female who's starting the trouble.
00:01:04.355 --> 00:01:04.846
You don't know.
00:01:04.865 --> 00:01:08.706
Sometimes the females will start it and then leave and just leave the boys to duke it out.
00:01:08.706 --> 00:01:16.950
So you do have to be really observant of behavior with this breed and decide where your line, where are you drawing the line?
00:01:17.191 --> 00:01:19.480
My line is I don't want a bloody brooder.
00:01:19.570 --> 00:01:20.861
I want to enjoy.
00:01:21.165 --> 00:01:27.036
The experience of raising chicks that I'm not constantly having to check or not know what I'm going to walk into.
00:01:27.475 --> 00:01:37.816
So if I have a chick that's fighting that early, I don't even want to wait and see if they end up being the most perfect chick I hatched this year, because I don't want that in my line.
00:01:38.210 --> 00:01:40.790
They have to be enjoyable to raise.
00:01:41.340 --> 00:01:42.260
It's too stressful.
00:01:42.811 --> 00:01:47.700
Should we think about, have you played with any other types of enrichment?
00:01:47.771 --> 00:01:53.200
Something else they can peck at or beat up on, I have.
00:01:53.200 --> 00:02:00.811
I had good luck with that with the seals, and the chamois seem to ignore any type of parakeet toy or side toy.
00:02:00.861 --> 00:02:02.721
They're so into each other.
00:02:03.221 --> 00:02:09.860
I think that's an area I haven't exhausted yet, but they don't seem as easily distracted.
00:02:10.661 --> 00:02:15.781
I'm actually just even wondering something as simple as some bailed alfalfa hay.
00:02:16.510 --> 00:02:17.950
Oh, I've not tried that.
00:02:17.950 --> 00:02:20.411
Just if they can tear apart and eat, right?
00:02:20.510 --> 00:02:26.550
The only issue with the parakeet toys is they tend to be hard and, they can't really damage them.
00:02:27.350 --> 00:02:34.191
It's futile, whereas if you put in a, like a cake of alfalfa hay and just let them tear it to shreds, right?
00:02:34.281 --> 00:02:38.050
So they can take out their aggression on something and watch it.
00:02:38.475 --> 00:02:39.126
Disappear.
00:02:39.756 --> 00:02:40.425
That's a great idea.
00:02:41.225 --> 00:02:41.936
Just an idea.
00:02:42.735 --> 00:02:44.406
Yeah, that's definitely something to try.
00:02:45.205 --> 00:02:48.705
Just something they can beat up on and they're not hurting anybody.
00:02:49.216 --> 00:02:49.746
Yeah.
00:02:50.126 --> 00:02:51.376
That gets us through the slide.
00:02:51.376 --> 00:02:55.656
So now we can get down to some of the nitty gritty what ifs and why fors.
00:02:56.205 --> 00:03:07.846
But you've talked about it a little bit and obviously with a bird of this size, there's got to be some pretty unique management considerations.
00:03:08.395 --> 00:03:14.754
From the time they're hatched until the, until they're mature, but what about And what about hatching?
00:03:14.764 --> 00:03:18.495
Do you find them easier, harder, or about the same to hatch as other breeds?
00:03:18.814 --> 00:03:21.634
I don't think they're any more difficult to hatch than other breeds.
00:03:21.664 --> 00:03:33.805
And having hatched something like Ceramas, which are just like mind boggling and frustrating to a lot of people, they're just, it's pretty standard procedure.
00:03:33.824 --> 00:03:35.555
I dry hatched my Shamows.
00:03:35.995 --> 00:03:42.634
I had great fertility and yeah, I had great luck with these birds with hatching so far.
00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:44.009
That's positive.
00:03:44.169 --> 00:03:47.189
But, then the brooder does pose some challenges.
00:03:47.689 --> 00:03:55.099
Especially, it depends on what size you want to have, what size flock of shammows you want to have.
00:03:55.139 --> 00:03:57.419
Because you can't combine age groups.
00:03:58.219 --> 00:04:00.319
Maybe you can, but you're taking a big risk.
00:04:00.685 --> 00:04:05.004
So having your, having a plan before you just go, these are really cool birds.
00:04:05.014 --> 00:04:06.425
I'll plan it out as I go.
00:04:06.495 --> 00:04:08.354
That's just not a good idea.
00:04:09.155 --> 00:04:10.014
Doesn't work well.
00:04:10.425 --> 00:04:15.324
And I saw you had those, that group of chicks were in a livestock watering tub.
00:04:16.125 --> 00:04:18.925
Do you brood them like that from day one on up or?
00:04:19.685 --> 00:04:24.915
No, I actually, I have a larger, that was, I ran into this problem this year.
00:04:24.915 --> 00:04:30.995
I have a larger brooder and I had really high hopes that I was going to be able to integrate.
00:04:31.795 --> 00:04:32.625
Age groups.
00:04:32.665 --> 00:04:37.134
And it just didn't happen, but I had a backup plan, which was the one that was in the picture.
00:04:37.564 --> 00:04:40.745
But then I quickly had to make sure I had a grow out pen.
00:04:40.754 --> 00:04:53.975
Cause I hatched for a lot, for most people, hatching 22 birds is not going to be a very big number, but when it comes to shamos that you might have to separate every single one by, a couple months.
00:04:54.194 --> 00:04:59.314
You hope not, but that's a worst case scenario is playing for the worst case, then room becomes.
00:04:59.845 --> 00:05:01.394
Slim pickings pretty quick.
00:05:02.154 --> 00:05:05.625
Yeah, I hadn't thought about that, but yeah, you could run out of space real quick.
00:05:06.024 --> 00:05:19.540
Yes, and I, some people have success keeping a bachelor flock of grow outs, but then, inevitably I see You know, there's death and I just prefer to avoid that altogether if possible.
00:05:20.339 --> 00:05:20.459
Sure.
00:05:20.620 --> 00:05:37.569
So Jessica, one of the tricks that other game breeds, game type fowl breeders are using is when they do the free range is they put a mature cock in there with them and no one challenges, right?
00:05:37.699 --> 00:05:39.959
He keeps everybody else under control.
00:05:40.730 --> 00:05:43.410
So there's something about, he knows he's the dominant.
00:05:43.845 --> 00:05:48.675
And he doesn't, there's nobody really in there for him to challenge that's worthy.
00:05:49.384 --> 00:05:50.574
And yet all the uncockrolls.
00:05:51.375 --> 00:05:55.084
are not dumb enough to start a fight because he runs over and breaks it up.
00:05:55.384 --> 00:05:56.134
That sort of thing.
00:05:56.274 --> 00:05:58.584
So I don't know if you've tried that yet.
00:05:59.384 --> 00:06:12.345
With the free range birds, because I have a, my American game are my range flock and Yes our flock leader, his name is Hook and he does, he puts the kibosh.
00:06:12.355 --> 00:06:17.045
So I have four grow out stags that are free range right now.
00:06:17.154 --> 00:06:30.074
And then I have two grow out, no, three grow out stags that are penned separately, and I am just so happy with the progress of the free range birds compared to the penned birds.
00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:34.500
I'd like to be able to replicate more of a free range environment.
00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:41.009
With a little bit more control because I can't feed these birds how they need to be fed when they're free ranging.
00:06:41.810 --> 00:06:44.459
They're fed like everybody else with the flock is fed.
00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:52.430
And then, so that there, that poses the problem, having the older bird with younger birds and feeding them appropriately.
00:06:53.230 --> 00:06:54.490
Oh, there's always problems.
00:06:55.290 --> 00:06:57.839
What about getting these birds ready for show?
00:06:58.199 --> 00:07:02.139
And I'm, I would imagine there's some special considerations going on there.
00:07:02.595 --> 00:07:14.795
What a scene that is, my dear husband, as I'm bringing him into the bathtub, because it's too cold around here in November to give these half naked birds a bath outside.
00:07:15.115 --> 00:07:22.985
So yeah, my bathroom is a scene of ancient combat chickens and towels, and it's really something.
00:07:23.254 --> 00:07:28.545
Fortunately, they seem to be humbled by being wet, and they don't really fight it.
00:07:29.095 --> 00:07:34.545
But I think the hardest part is transporting them, and it's a, it's just a big bird.
00:07:34.634 --> 00:07:43.524
They got just keeping all of these parts clean, but then I look at these people traveling with white birds and think I probably have it easy.
00:07:44.324 --> 00:07:45.035
Yeah, you do.
00:07:45.834 --> 00:07:46.675
That's the reason I don't have whiteboards.
00:07:47.475 --> 00:07:49.084
That doesn't look fun at all.
00:07:49.884 --> 00:07:52.064
But the stags, they get disturbed.
00:07:52.074 --> 00:07:55.375
They do get very disturbed when they don't have a pullet with them.
00:07:55.524 --> 00:07:59.004
I tried to do some cage training differently this year.
00:07:59.375 --> 00:08:02.625
And I tried for weeks and it was just unsuccessful.
00:08:02.625 --> 00:08:04.285
This bird was just getting worse and worse.
00:08:04.345 --> 00:08:11.394
And then as soon as I gave him a pullet, he just is totally subdued now and has no problem being confined.
00:08:11.404 --> 00:08:20.495
So far when I've traveled with my birds to shows, every stag travels in a large dog crate with one pullet and they stay.
00:08:20.714 --> 00:08:22.464
Very calm on the ride.
00:08:22.514 --> 00:08:28.944
Anytime I've tried to box one alone, they get a little bit frantic and frantic for seven hours before you get cooped.
00:08:28.944 --> 00:08:30.185
It's not really okay.
00:08:30.985 --> 00:08:32.345
I have a question here.
00:08:33.065 --> 00:08:39.715
This strikes me as a breed that would benefit from being posed right at a show.
00:08:39.955 --> 00:08:40.504
Oh yeah.
00:08:40.985 --> 00:08:41.904
Do you work with.
00:08:42.575 --> 00:08:44.004
Training your birds to pose.
00:08:44.085 --> 00:08:44.544
Oh yeah.
00:08:44.544 --> 00:08:45.565
I work with treats.
00:08:45.684 --> 00:08:45.894
Yeah.
00:08:45.924 --> 00:08:47.365
You've talked about that before.
00:08:47.475 --> 00:08:51.575
So they're all, anytime they see me walk up to the thing, their heads are up there.
00:08:51.894 --> 00:08:55.304
One has learned to stick his head out of the drop pen.
00:08:55.315 --> 00:09:00.195
He has to turn it sideways, but now he sees me coming and he's even he's ready.
00:09:00.995 --> 00:09:03.554
So they have personality and character.
00:09:04.115 --> 00:09:06.164
Sounds like they're pretty easy to pose train though.
00:09:06.595 --> 00:09:07.284
Oh yeah.
00:09:07.575 --> 00:09:10.085
There's not a fearful bone in their body.
00:09:10.600 --> 00:09:12.210
Which is good and bad, sometimes.
00:09:13.009 --> 00:09:22.590
Sue asked about them flying well, and as far as flying goes, I, like I said, I keep my the platforms that they roost on up.
00:09:22.929 --> 00:09:24.360
They're about 30 inches.
00:09:24.945 --> 00:09:27.715
And they hop up to those with no effort.
00:09:27.845 --> 00:09:31.615
Usually it's all legs but they will not go over a fence.
00:09:31.725 --> 00:09:32.294
Not yet.
00:09:33.095 --> 00:09:38.134
I, they would have to be really spooked and probably young and lightweight at that point.
00:09:38.274 --> 00:09:39.054
They won't go over.
00:09:39.054 --> 00:09:39.375
Interesting.
00:09:40.174 --> 00:09:40.615
Thank God.
00:09:41.414 --> 00:09:44.264
We've got a question back up here and we're getting to that part of the show.
00:09:44.674 --> 00:09:57.595
And Barbara asked, so you do single residents per bird, but you just said that you're doing like a pullet with a cockerel or a hen with a rooster with a cockerel, just to keep them calm, just so they're not alone.
00:09:57.634 --> 00:09:59.105
I have not had luck.
00:09:59.105 --> 00:10:00.445
That was my intention.
00:10:00.485 --> 00:10:03.075
And I think Katie has done it successfully.
00:10:03.534 --> 00:10:12.524
And maybe it's just who I am, that I am not tolerant of a pacing bird that is not able to look at peace in the day.
00:10:12.924 --> 00:10:13.945
It bothers me.
00:10:14.034 --> 00:10:21.355
If all they can do is take a second to rapidly eat and then pace a fence, it just doesn't seem like the right way for them to live.
00:10:21.855 --> 00:10:22.105
Yeah.
00:10:22.904 --> 00:10:24.595
Yeah, their gameness.
00:10:24.595 --> 00:10:35.945
So if they see another bird and another nearby, they're gonna pace, whether it's a hen who's walking around outside, or whether it's a rooster three doors down.
00:10:36.534 --> 00:10:41.534
Yeah, and pretty much all the game breeds, I've watched, and that's just their behavior.
00:10:42.085 --> 00:10:44.524
And they're, They don't really calm down.
00:10:45.115 --> 00:10:46.245
They're just high strung.
00:10:46.294 --> 00:10:50.705
On this note, Rip, I have a question for you, as a judge.
00:10:51.504 --> 00:10:52.424
I've done this.
00:10:52.475 --> 00:10:55.184
I don't know if I was supposed to do this, but I did it anyway.
00:10:55.625 --> 00:11:07.875
If you walk up and your coop cards are in such a way, but you're all in a row, because I have one breed, Can I decide where my birds go in that row, or do they have to stay the way the cards are laid out?
00:11:08.044 --> 00:11:15.554
They're laid out by, of course, breed, and then variety, and then sex.
00:11:16.355 --> 00:11:18.445
You'll have all the cock birds here.
00:11:19.014 --> 00:11:26.615
Maybe three or four, and then maybe two or three hens, and then maybe three or four cockerels, and five pullets.
00:11:27.414 --> 00:11:32.537
They can go anywhere they want to in that, or anywhere you want to put them.
00:11:32.537 --> 00:11:34.063
In that small range.
00:11:34.063 --> 00:11:39.434
Yeah, you can't put like a hen in the middle of a cockbird group.
00:11:40.195 --> 00:11:40.585
Okay.
00:11:40.664 --> 00:11:51.815
That's something to think about for planning for future shows, because to keep one of these people, Birds calm, and again, they can uproot this coop from the table very easily.
00:11:52.245 --> 00:11:56.884
I put them by whoever their pen mate is, and then they're okay with that.
00:11:57.164 --> 00:12:03.664
But, if I choose to bring more birds, that's going to add more complications to my methods.
00:12:04.465 --> 00:12:04.804
Yeah.
00:12:05.605 --> 00:12:09.195
I want to see them uproot the pen and be loose on the floor.
00:12:09.195 --> 00:12:10.254
I want to see that system.
00:12:10.754 --> 00:12:14.404
They can only be outdone by a guinea, loose on the floor, right?
00:12:14.625 --> 00:12:15.715
That's my favorite.
00:12:15.934 --> 00:12:17.075
Guinea on the loose.
00:12:17.875 --> 00:12:18.684
Just wave goodbye.
00:12:19.125 --> 00:12:19.514
Goodbye.
00:12:20.315 --> 00:12:20.875
Adios.
00:12:21.375 --> 00:12:27.184
Susan asked about your nutritional part of it and I don't have your feed memorized, Jessica.
00:12:27.215 --> 00:12:32.674
Do you want to talk about, our, the program that we've put together for bringing them up through?
00:12:32.674 --> 00:12:32.815
Yeah.
00:12:33.315 --> 00:12:56.495
I don't have everything memorized either, but I did fortunately write down a couple of key notes which was number one, that they need an animal protein, and you had suggested a fish meal or wild caught crab meal, something that mimics what their protein source would have been in the wild, and they're large birds, so vegetarian diet probably not going to be successful.
00:12:57.294 --> 00:13:14.860
We had gone over a couple of myths a lot of people supplement with cat food or think that you need a higher calcium because they have a faster bone growth or some people think that you need to keep an extremely low protein for a chick so they grow slower and they don't grow too fast.
00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:19.230
None of these things I've learned have any scientific.
00:13:19.514 --> 00:13:20.554
basis whatsoever.
00:13:21.065 --> 00:13:29.384
We had a 23 percent starter for protein and a 21 percent grower with the lysine at 1.
00:13:29.554 --> 00:13:34.215
25%, I think, and methionine at half a percent or above.
00:13:34.924 --> 00:13:36.154
Yeah, it should have been like 0.
00:13:36.205 --> 00:13:37.105
52, 0.
00:13:37.154 --> 00:13:38.115
53, I think.
00:13:38.115 --> 00:13:39.144
I think it was 0.
00:13:39.184 --> 00:13:57.889
55 percent is what you had my particular Grower at so you remember what the calcium level was I don't I think I did I think I did want your calcium at so any other random chick like you would buy a tractor supply I would be happy with 0.
00:13:57.889 --> 00:14:09.850
85 calcium, but because of accelerated growth, particularly, like the shammo and other birds that grow very quickly and they have that growth spurt normally I'll try and be at 1.
00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:11.240
2, 1.
00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:14.830
3 calcium just to keep up with that growth.
00:14:15.090 --> 00:14:18.870
So that was one of the considerations that, I'm sure.
00:14:19.669 --> 00:14:20.690
I would've factored in.
00:14:20.690 --> 00:14:21.980
So now I'm curious.
00:14:21.980 --> 00:14:24.620
I'll look at that in the morning when I get to the office.
00:14:24.710 --> 00:14:26.289
But now something else.
00:14:26.289 --> 00:14:27.220
But you haven't had any issues?
00:14:28.019 --> 00:14:28.440
No.
00:14:28.789 --> 00:14:31.100
So here's something that has come up.
00:14:31.129 --> 00:14:33.049
Maybe it's a myth, maybe it's not.
00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:37.049
But people have recommended giving your birds glucosamine.
00:14:37.629 --> 00:14:42.480
If they're not as active as they seem like they should be.
00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:46.149
I have one stag now who is just exceptionally large.
00:14:46.894 --> 00:14:50.335
For his age, and then that was recommended, because he lays down a lot.
00:14:50.345 --> 00:15:01.284
He moves around the yard all the time, but if he's gonna, graze, or do whatever he's doing it on the ground, and he's been like this for a couple of months now, and is How old is he?
00:15:02.085 --> 00:15:06.134
He was hatched I think March 10th, something like that.
00:15:06.934 --> 00:15:21.320
I have seen Similar things with my Reds a lot of times they'll hit a certain point in their development and when they eat, they're Plop down on the ground and just hogging the feed trough.
00:15:21.820 --> 00:15:24.690
I refer to him as my little red feeder pigs at that stage.
00:15:24.690 --> 00:15:29.919
For me, it just looks like he's lazy cause his health seems perfectly fine in every way.
00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:34.389
And he will happily run if he sees me with the feed bin, you're not, okay.
00:15:34.580 --> 00:15:37.250
No discoloration, no swelling of the hock, right?
00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:38.259
That's okay.
00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:43.605
And when he sits on a normal sitting posture, not all the way back on his butt.
00:15:44.105 --> 00:15:45.575
He's not asleep all the way back.
00:15:46.125 --> 00:15:52.589
No, what I mean is I don't, yeah, but if he's on his butt and his feet are actually coming forward out the front of his body.
00:15:52.589 --> 00:15:53.634
No, not like that at all.
00:15:53.855 --> 00:15:56.725
Okay, I just worried about viral arthritis.
00:15:57.524 --> 00:16:00.664
That's where, we want to be careful of them eating anything off the ground.
00:16:01.154 --> 00:16:09.825
Cause they can't pick that up and it'll, it's a bacteria that'll lodge in the hock joint and it slowly deteriorates the metatarsal tendon.
00:16:10.284 --> 00:16:11.654
So that's why I asked.
00:16:11.654 --> 00:16:12.595
How do they pick that up?
00:16:12.595 --> 00:16:16.083
So it's actually, the bacteria is in the soil.
00:16:16.344 --> 00:16:20.984
So you know, when people tell me they're feeding on the ground, I just cringe, right?
00:16:21.063 --> 00:16:22.124
And I want to cry.
00:16:22.323 --> 00:16:24.604
And so it's don't do this people, right?
00:16:24.724 --> 00:16:25.953
It's people do it anyway.
00:16:26.033 --> 00:16:40.614
Yeah, spilled feed, eating off the ground especially if there's a higher moisture content, the bacteria is already living there and they just pick up a little bit of dirt that has the bacteria in it when they're trying to get that lost piece of grain that fell on the ground.
00:16:41.163 --> 00:16:42.994
And it doesn't take much exposure to it.
00:16:43.033 --> 00:16:45.524
Once it gets in the system, it just starts growing.
00:16:46.219 --> 00:16:57.609
And, but the body pushes it off and it, and I can send you a link to it, but it loads up in the hock joint, where it goes from feather to scales right there in that knee joint, so to speak.
00:16:58.408 --> 00:17:01.278
And eventually it makes him immobile.
00:17:02.078 --> 00:17:06.159
Then the only other attribute, but you're saying this is only one.
00:17:06.219 --> 00:17:08.189
So watch, does he high step?
00:17:08.483 --> 00:17:19.183
When you see a bird that really exaggeratedly takes a step leg comes way up high, straightens it out, comes down, like a soldier marching, okay, is the best way to say it.
00:17:19.733 --> 00:17:23.284
And we, that would be more of a sign of gout, okay.
00:17:23.493 --> 00:17:24.854
Nope, and I know what you're talking about.
00:17:24.864 --> 00:17:25.784
He paddles.
00:17:25.834 --> 00:17:28.683
He does look very strange when he runs.
00:17:28.753 --> 00:17:34.213
He paddles like this when he runs, but he might just be very gangly and awkward.
00:17:35.013 --> 00:17:36.894
But I might also be undereducated.
00:17:37.693 --> 00:17:38.374
I'm just checking.
00:17:39.173 --> 00:17:43.554
I think how people tend to like to feed their birds on the ground.
00:17:44.314 --> 00:17:44.574
Yeah.
00:17:44.574 --> 00:17:45.233
Don't do that.
00:17:45.953 --> 00:18:02.203
Yeah, I know it drives me crazy, but when you get a chance to hold him you don't have to pick him up, but just gently feel or massage the hawk joint just to see if it feels more watery or gelatin like than other birds.
00:18:02.644 --> 00:18:04.763
And see if it may be slightly larger.
00:18:05.493 --> 00:18:08.493
You can also check to see if it feels feverish or hot.
00:18:08.834 --> 00:18:09.854
That would be another sign.
00:18:10.653 --> 00:18:12.473
Sorry, I didn't mean to get Is glucosamine safe for birds?
00:18:13.273 --> 00:18:17.943
It is, glucosamine is safe for everything and people are thinking that it's going to help the joint.
00:18:18.104 --> 00:18:40.864
But, in your diets, because we've addressed the appropriate level of fat I'm not worried about it, and all the components are there for good cartilage, good joint lubrication, if somebody was feeding a deficient feed, They would see a response from the glucose of me, but Jessica soon had a comment about your question about shows and how the birds are placed.
00:18:41.663 --> 00:18:47.824
She said it might be worthwhile to check with the show staff and see if they would make a concession on placement.
00:18:48.624 --> 00:18:50.713
I agree.
00:18:50.894 --> 00:18:56.023
As a former show secretary, I would probably be amenable to that.
00:18:56.584 --> 00:19:04.433
I just had to make sure, and you might have to do it as a follow up to know, to let the judge know what's going on and why it was done that way.
00:19:05.213 --> 00:19:10.124
It would be interesting to see how it was received, because change is not always received well.
00:19:10.923 --> 00:19:12.763
But, it's worth trying.
00:19:13.564 --> 00:19:16.233
If you don't know, you don't ever change anything if you don't ask.
00:19:16.624 --> 00:19:17.044
This is true.
00:19:17.084 --> 00:19:20.263
It's not, I'm not asking for a turkey cage, just asking a little different.
00:19:21.064 --> 00:19:22.273
Turkey cage would be nice though.
00:19:22.513 --> 00:19:28.854
Oh Laura Elwood wants to know, do you have any secrets to share about bathing your birds?
00:19:29.653 --> 00:19:34.933
Oh, I'm fascinated to read other people's secrets to bathing their birds.
00:19:35.263 --> 00:19:40.703
Again, I have a hard feathered breed, so it's pretty straightforward.
00:19:40.923 --> 00:19:46.554
I don't have to worry about blowing out down and getting things to lay right and it's going to lay the way it lays.
00:19:46.979 --> 00:19:55.368
I just got to make sure they're fed properly so they shine and that they're housed properly so they're not all broken and frayed.
00:19:55.449 --> 00:19:58.969
And then, I use just a nice, high quality, natural feed.
00:19:59.449 --> 00:20:02.108
Shampoo, conditioner for dogs and it works for me.
00:20:02.909 --> 00:20:05.729
Matt Lamon wrote an article.
00:20:05.769 --> 00:20:11.209
I don't know if I have it or not, but it was a good article on showing and conditioning hard feathered breeds.
00:20:12.009 --> 00:20:13.548
If I can find it, I'll send it to you.
00:20:13.659 --> 00:20:14.618
Yeah, please do.
00:20:14.659 --> 00:20:17.538
It's a unique poses its own unique problems.
00:20:18.338 --> 00:20:22.058
Okay, let's see, we don't have, I think that gets all of our.
00:20:22.858 --> 00:20:36.588
They're actually, they're quite enjoyable to prepare for a show because as long as you get them, if they're conditioned properly from the beginning, they're just going to wow people anyway, like you really can't mess it up at the bathing part.
00:20:37.088 --> 00:20:42.808
How could you not look at one of those shamos and not go, wow, that's a bird.
00:20:43.513 --> 00:20:56.104
Yes, and I more so learn along the way, that taking them from home and then the change in environment at the show and how other birds might be stressing them out or how they behave there.
00:20:56.253 --> 00:21:01.773
That's where all of the problems happen and make them look different is are they confident?
00:21:02.054 --> 00:21:03.153
Will they stand up?
00:21:03.513 --> 00:21:06.653
Are they going to wreck their comb on the cage bars?
00:21:06.673 --> 00:21:08.324
It all happens in the final hour.
00:21:09.124 --> 00:21:09.993
Another question for you.
00:21:10.433 --> 00:21:13.713
I say ol Rip's decided he wants shamos.
00:21:13.993 --> 00:21:17.864
And ol Rip doesn't know doodly squat about shamos other than what he's read in the standard.
00:21:18.663 --> 00:21:22.384
But what are some good resources people could refer to out there?
00:21:22.413 --> 00:21:25.344
Maybe some books, websites, social media groups.
00:21:25.913 --> 00:21:31.814
This is a book that anybody even interested, whether you think you're going to get them or not.
00:21:31.824 --> 00:21:35.564
It's just a really cool book to learn about a totally different side of.
00:21:36.364 --> 00:21:37.493
What's the title of that?
00:21:38.074 --> 00:21:40.963
It's called Oriental Gamefowl and it's Horse Shmud.
00:21:41.763 --> 00:21:42.183
Oh yeah.
00:21:42.983 --> 00:21:44.124
It's an excellent book.
00:21:44.134 --> 00:21:45.743
It's not a very easy book to find.
00:21:45.753 --> 00:21:47.384
It's not a very cheap book.
00:21:47.653 --> 00:21:49.574
But it's got a lot of great things.
00:21:50.084 --> 00:21:53.523
Wow, this is just not as easy as it seems like it should be.
00:21:54.023 --> 00:21:55.574
Got a lot of great photos in it.
00:21:55.834 --> 00:22:02.713
You'll see there's different sized shamos that aren't in our standard, but they are in the Japanese standard.
00:22:02.713 --> 00:22:12.243
They're small, medium, and large shamos, but it dives into More of the details, the coloring, all of this type of stuff and the history of Japanese poultry.
00:22:12.253 --> 00:22:13.193
It's a great book.
00:22:13.503 --> 00:22:14.503
I loved this one.
00:22:14.983 --> 00:22:20.604
There's also this is the unofficial, official shamo lady, Julia Keeling.
00:22:21.153 --> 00:22:25.703
She She's passionate about the bird and she did a lot of research on the bird.
00:22:25.713 --> 00:22:32.614
This book was disappointing in regards to giving me information that would help me on my journey.
00:22:32.784 --> 00:22:36.683
However, it documents some really cool art and history about the shamo.
00:22:36.723 --> 00:22:43.054
If you want to nerd out in that way, this is a cool book, but it's not a lot about husbandry or anything like that.
00:22:43.854 --> 00:22:44.913
And it's also really expensive.
00:22:44.993 --> 00:22:46.394
So if you're dividing your money.
00:22:46.693 --> 00:22:48.104
Go with the Oriental Game Talk book.
00:22:48.604 --> 00:23:05.874
And then Livestock Conservancy, we're actually, they asked me to participate in a DNA study on inherently aggressive birds, so I drew some blood from my birds and sent it in for that, something interesting, and I'm going to help out with the census.
00:23:06.358 --> 00:23:09.128
Oriental game community is it's hard to break into.
00:23:09.128 --> 00:23:12.368
There's a little bit of like secrecy and things for some reason.
00:23:13.058 --> 00:23:14.909
Is there a website for that?
00:23:14.909 --> 00:23:16.798
I know you have a Gamefowl website, but.
00:23:16.898 --> 00:23:17.239
Yep.
00:23:17.548 --> 00:23:20.909
I started that the gamefowlconservation.
00:23:21.558 --> 00:23:25.449
org website, just because I wanted to compile information.
00:23:25.469 --> 00:23:27.588
Facebook's not accessible to everyone.
00:23:27.798 --> 00:23:29.798
There's a million groups out there.
00:23:29.898 --> 00:23:31.519
You can't track them all.
00:23:31.858 --> 00:23:35.068
So I did that and I started a Facebook group.
00:23:35.679 --> 00:23:38.209
Under the same name, Gamefowl Conservation Network.
00:23:38.888 --> 00:23:43.769
And if you look up Oriental Gamefowl in groups on Facebook, you'll find a lot of groups.
00:23:43.848 --> 00:23:46.459
A lot of it is just people showing off their birds.
00:23:46.459 --> 00:23:48.048
It's not a lot of learning.
00:23:48.108 --> 00:23:54.409
It's just not It's just not a, there's not a Poultry Keepers 360 for game foul.
00:23:55.209 --> 00:23:56.249
You ought to work on that now.
00:23:56.528 --> 00:23:57.798
Yeah, really.
00:23:58.269 --> 00:24:03.759
I saw somebody post today in the group that they had found like the Holy Grail or whatever they said.
00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:04.519
Yeah, I saw that.
00:24:04.898 --> 00:24:06.179
It is like that though.
00:24:06.179 --> 00:24:14.128
You're like, oh my gosh, it's a group that actually, is not judgmental, relies on factual information and, people have goals and purpose.
00:24:14.179 --> 00:24:17.878
And that's really, you want a community that has similar goals and purpose.
00:24:18.548 --> 00:24:19.189
Absolutely.
00:24:19.308 --> 00:24:23.058
And folks, her website and Facebook group are both excellent.
00:24:23.689 --> 00:24:24.179
Thank you.
00:24:24.548 --> 00:24:28.699
If you have any interest at all whatsoever, you need to go check them both out.
00:24:29.078 --> 00:24:29.838
It's really good.
00:24:29.838 --> 00:24:34.388
I just highly recommend anybody interested in the breed, just talk to as many people as you can.
00:24:34.618 --> 00:24:37.858
Everyone's going to have different experiences with the breed.
00:24:37.898 --> 00:24:42.078
They keep them a little bit differently, so don't just go based off of what one person said.
00:24:42.548 --> 00:24:45.108
Try and talk to as many people as you can before you dive in.
00:24:45.909 --> 00:24:48.628
Shaggy wants to know if you do table training?
00:24:48.683 --> 00:24:51.794
Once again, the I'm picturing them on a table with me right now.
00:24:52.334 --> 00:25:03.459
I do not just because of how they are, everything I do, grooming, all of this stuff I do on the ground because I want to be able to stand up and be farther away from their face.
00:25:04.259 --> 00:25:04.848
Makes sense.
00:25:05.648 --> 00:25:10.378
Is there anything else you want to add about Shamows tonight?
00:25:11.179 --> 00:25:16.348
As soon as we get off of this video, I will have half a dozen things.
00:25:17.148 --> 00:25:18.858
I thought I was the only one that did that.
00:25:18.858 --> 00:25:19.259
Now, come on.
00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:21.028
I asked you pre show.
00:25:21.098 --> 00:25:37.278
So if somebody listening or watches the show later, and let's say they reach out to you and they want a pair, Our trio, what should they expect to pay for a good quality, good breed, good breeding pair of chamois?
00:25:37.358 --> 00:25:49.663
It's not an inexpensive bird and you do have to be extremely cautious because there's a lot of mixed birds out there and you'll be forever trying to get your bird close to something you could.
00:25:49.903 --> 00:26:10.574
Go and, exhibit with, so I would say not to, if you can help it, going to shows, going somewhere like the National, where there might be enough of a pool of people you can see them in person that would be definitely preferred, and you could expect to pay upwards of 350 for a pair.
00:26:11.159 --> 00:26:11.909
For sure.
00:26:12.429 --> 00:26:18.429
And you're also competing with a couple of different markets of people that might want these birds.
00:26:18.439 --> 00:26:22.669
So you're not only, it's not only ornamental show keepers.
00:26:22.679 --> 00:26:25.249
There's a lot of different types of folks that keep game balsam.
00:26:25.483 --> 00:26:25.963
Sure.
00:26:26.763 --> 00:26:29.703
So a trio would probably be in the$500 range.
00:26:29.963 --> 00:26:36.388
I'm assuming, if you got, I would, if you got a pair for three 50, probably a trio in the five to$600 range.
00:26:36.919 --> 00:26:37.128
Yeah.
00:26:37.128 --> 00:26:38.808
Which does seem extreme.
00:26:38.808 --> 00:26:42.469
But yeah, if you wanna start with really nice birds, I don't think that is extreme.
00:26:42.469 --> 00:26:49.459
You're saying that a lot of folks would have an apoplectic seizure over that price, but when you stop and think about it.
00:26:50.118 --> 00:27:01.278
The rarity of the breed, the quality of your birds, and just all the management and difficulties that goes into trying to raise those things.
00:27:02.078 --> 00:27:04.854
I wouldn't want to think that I could go out and get that.
00:27:05.193 --> 00:27:07.854
Two dozen hatching eggs and raised birds for that amount.
00:27:08.203 --> 00:27:10.334
I'd have a fortune tied up in those birds.
00:27:10.923 --> 00:27:13.134
Yeah, yep, this is true.
00:27:13.544 --> 00:27:20.144
And there's a lot of, you got to really study the standard and know what are common shamo defects.
00:27:20.459 --> 00:27:23.088
Which is going to be a large comb.
00:27:23.388 --> 00:27:24.959
This is in both of these books as well.
00:27:25.269 --> 00:27:29.138
Oversized comb, duck feet slouching wings.
00:27:29.159 --> 00:27:30.788
You gotta know what you're looking for.
00:27:30.788 --> 00:27:34.788
And if you don't see a magnificent bird, then don't pay for a magnificent bird.
00:27:35.148 --> 00:27:37.209
If you just want a pet, then pay pet price.
00:27:37.679 --> 00:27:38.328
That's a good quote.
00:27:38.328 --> 00:27:39.419
I may have to use that.
00:27:40.009 --> 00:27:40.199
Yeah.
00:27:40.999 --> 00:27:43.769
What Susan wants to know what's her average lay rate.
00:27:44.403 --> 00:27:48.354
So this is something I'm gonna do next year.
00:27:48.374 --> 00:27:59.713
I'm gonna commit to my different pens, my young up and coming layers, and then my older birds, and come up with this, because I don't think that this, the information out there is correct.
00:27:59.713 --> 00:28:03.413
I think right now, it's like, they say that shammels lay 90 eggs a year.
00:28:03.624 --> 00:28:05.044
They're some of my best layers.
00:28:05.263 --> 00:28:17.159
I always have eggs on a nearly daily basis from my trio pens to eggs, and I think that's fascinating, because Most people say they're horrible layers, but I have not, I do not have a number.
00:28:17.298 --> 00:28:18.019
I've not done that.
00:28:18.598 --> 00:28:27.828
I would have thought it would have been closer to that 90 egg range, but I think that's spectacular that you're going to do that, but we'll see what winter brings this year.
00:28:27.989 --> 00:28:28.729
They start laying?
00:28:28.929 --> 00:28:32.648
They should have started in May, April, May, like everybody else, right?
00:28:32.798 --> 00:28:33.973
With longer days.
00:28:34.473 --> 00:28:38.034
You're already, May, June, July, you're already six months in.
00:28:38.659 --> 00:28:39.479
So that's 180 days.
00:28:39.479 --> 00:28:41.219
And everybody's molted already.
00:28:41.278 --> 00:28:42.729
All the shammo pens have molted.
00:28:43.528 --> 00:28:45.598
And you're still getting eggs, even though they're molted?
00:28:45.739 --> 00:28:47.148
Yes, yeah.
00:28:47.949 --> 00:28:49.259
Persistent little things, aren't they?
00:28:49.648 --> 00:28:51.608
They are, and double yokers all the time.
00:28:51.648 --> 00:28:53.509
It's got to, let's, it's Jeff's fault.
00:28:53.568 --> 00:28:54.159
It's the feed.
00:28:54.699 --> 00:28:55.828
They're magical shammos.
00:28:55.969 --> 00:28:59.638
We don't want double yokers, so maybe we're overfeeding the adults.
00:28:59.709 --> 00:28:59.949
Overfeeding.
00:29:00.749 --> 00:29:04.509
Yeah, I wonder if you, yeah, we may have to cut back.
00:29:05.048 --> 00:29:08.409
I don't know how much you're giving them, but we probably should have that discussion as well.
00:29:09.209 --> 00:29:19.838
On the feed formulas that I've made for you, like the adult breeders, and again, I don't know, but you probably can do with about three or four ounces per bird.
00:29:20.638 --> 00:29:21.519
Don't overfeed them.
00:29:22.318 --> 00:29:22.788
But they're hungry.
00:29:22.888 --> 00:29:24.568
That would explain your double yokers.
00:29:24.699 --> 00:29:32.588
Even though their size, okay, but that would, if they're, once they're mature, if they're getting, too much protein.
00:29:32.963 --> 00:29:34.294
That's what you're going to end up with.
00:29:35.094 --> 00:29:37.993
That would explain it I'm happy for you, and they're great table legs.
00:29:38.159 --> 00:29:39.798
And I, they're, I'm sure they're table lake.
00:29:40.509 --> 00:29:41.858
I bet they taste really good.
00:29:41.858 --> 00:29:46.148
But hatching purposes, you don't really want those double yolks oh gosh.
00:29:46.648 --> 00:29:46.888
Yep.
00:29:46.888 --> 00:29:47.939
Something to pursue.
00:29:47.939 --> 00:29:53.519
Every time I listen to a podcast, every time I learn something new and I think, wow, gosh, there's more.
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:54.719
I need another spreadsheet.
00:29:54.749 --> 00:29:56.378
I need another touchy.
00:29:57.179 --> 00:29:58.338
We'll get, we'll hone it in though.
00:29:58.388 --> 00:29:59.038
Bless your heart.
00:29:59.538 --> 00:30:04.999
Jessica, I really appreciate you agreeing to come spend an hour with us tonight.
00:30:05.058 --> 00:30:05.739
This was great.
00:30:05.949 --> 00:30:09.729
It was not only a fun show, it was a very educational show.
00:30:09.729 --> 00:30:10.969
It was great.
00:30:10.969 --> 00:30:12.493
And I just loved it.
00:30:13.114 --> 00:30:17.913
We'll have to do this again sometime after you get your grant and all that and we can learn more stuff.
00:30:18.179 --> 00:30:19.058
Fingers crossed.
00:30:19.058 --> 00:30:22.489
I'll start the spreadsheets and then I'll have more details to share.
00:30:23.288 --> 00:30:23.828
Sounds good.
00:30:23.828 --> 00:30:26.618
Folks, thank you for joining us this evening.
00:30:27.078 --> 00:30:29.459
Be sure and join us in two weeks.
00:30:30.038 --> 00:30:32.398
Our very own Sue Dobson is going to be with us.
00:30:32.808 --> 00:30:35.439
And she's gonna bring her breeding partner or partner.
00:30:35.439 --> 00:30:45.209
They work together on Crevecouers, and she's going to be talking about those big black, beautiful crested fowl, so that's in two weeks.
00:30:45.929 --> 00:30:48.848
So until next time, thank you for listening.
00:30:49.269 --> 00:30:50.028
You folks are awesome.
00:30:50.318 --> 00:30:51.318
Have a great day.
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