Oct. 16, 2023
Insights and Strategies for Poultry Breeding - Part 2
Ready for a deep dive into the world of poultry breeding? This episode offers a wealth of insights that will help you understand the intricacies of flock quality and the biological marvels inside your birds. We kick things off with a look at how the behavior of male birds can affect fertility and overall flock quality. You'll be surprised to learn about the critical function of grit in a bird’s diet and how internal organs like the gizzard play a pivotal role in extracting nutrients.
The story doesn't end there though. Shifting gears, we delve into the delicate balance of inbreeding and line breeding, discussing the potential rewards and risks involved. Find out how the breeding value of individual birds can significantly impact your flock. We even share tales from our own journey, revealing the space and resources needed for successful breeding. The final chapter of the episode illustrates the significance of consistent quality, the importance of identifying individual birds accurately, and why single matings matter. So, sit back and come take a journey with us through the world of poultry breeding.
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00:00 - Breeding Strategies for Improving Flock Quality
09:38 - Poultry Breeding and Inbreeding Importance
19:24 - Quality and Consistency in Poultry Breeding
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If you listen to the last week's show, you may have more questions about starting your printing program.
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Well, you're in a lot because we're going to pick up right where we left off.
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So let's get started.
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My line of Rhode Island dreads were bred without bringing in outside blood for 80 plus years.
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I didn't have that long.
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But you know the gentleman I got mine from got his from another lady who did the same thing and he just continued that process.
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What was the temperament like on your males?
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Oh, they're very docile, very, very docile.
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It doesn't impact their breeding or fertility.
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They're very people friendly.
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As a matter of fact, young cockles I got out there.
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Now I'm literally afraid when I go into pen I'm thinking of tripping me up and I'm going to fall down and squish one up.
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My birds were at me like that.
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They're a bunch of trip hazards.
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Yeah, I'm wondering where the difference is between being socialized and being trip hazards.
00:01:06.819 --> 00:01:07.742
Well, I'm wondering.
00:01:07.742 --> 00:01:20.805
Well, so some old timers in my family who've been around birds for quite a while and they would tell me to not keep the calm, docile males.
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Now, these guys, they believed in line, breeding through and through.
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But they said don't keep your lazy boys because you'll put yourself in a fertility pickle and you'll lose vigor.
00:01:31.968 --> 00:01:47.248
And I don't think that's true, but I see it said again and again, and again, and I've heard it too, that they keep the sort of high, strong males because it's a clear representation of vigor, maybe.
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Yes and no.
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The problem your hatch results tell you if you were losing fertility or not.
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Oh sure, and apart enough birds and compared the testicular size in the carcass and can I take back to the personality of the bird before call?
00:02:02.789 --> 00:02:19.199
This is true, and there's nothing like doing your own processing to really get into the nitty gritty of what's inside of a bird, because I think a lot of knowledge can not come forward to you about your flock if you're outsourcing your processing because you weren't there.
00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:25.384
If something weird was found, they just chuck it aside and stick your bird in a bag and they don't have any notes to give you.
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But if you're doing the processing now.
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You're the one inside seeing variances and discrepancies and you'll be able to.
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You know that bird.
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So once you get in there and go, oh well, that's why he was a hole, or oh, that's why that one was so passive and underdeveloped.
00:02:44.099 --> 00:02:51.039
Or if you're constantly cutting your gloves because the body cavity spacing is so tight, getting in past than a pinball.
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You will so understand and appreciate good bone spacing if you're the one with the hand that has to go up there.
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I met Ms Donaldson and talked to her a couple of times before she passed away and we had some really good discussions and she always maintained that the very best breeders ate their coals.
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She said you can learn more from eating your coals, that's when I started to learn the most.
00:03:17.146 --> 00:03:22.098
Because what's going on Not only with the muscling but the skeletal structure?
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Yeah, the bone, spacing, the skeletal structure, even how they put on fat, where they put the fat.
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I have seen discrepancies with organ sizes, even if they had the body capacity.
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I've seen small hearts, small gizzards.
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I've seen oversized hearts, oversized gizzards.
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I've seen all of these little different variances to where it really hinges on me doing my due diligence on the selection part and understanding what was getting bred forward and from where.
00:03:50.872 --> 00:03:56.009
So I'm getting ready to change the way I do things and we'll go into that later.
00:03:57.740 --> 00:03:58.663
Let me ask you a question.
00:03:58.663 --> 00:04:10.991
You talked about organ size and I know how I feel about gizzards, but do you remember, if you're faster growing birds at larger gizzards?
00:04:11.942 --> 00:04:12.704
Yes, they did.
00:04:12.985 --> 00:04:26.870
That's right, they sure do the pathetic boys usually had small hearts, small gizzards and small testicles, yeah, so if you're butchering your own birds, the capacity to grind feed with grit and extract.
00:04:26.870 --> 00:04:31.173
Yes, that's where the whole nutritional side starts with.
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Birds is the gizzard and how well it grinds feed so they can digest it.
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So all means, pay attention to the gizzard side.
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And I came living down south, gizzards and chicken hearts were available at every corner gas station and they're quite delicious.
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Chicken liver is too.
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One of my favorite things is to peel the gizzard, and I don't know why.
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It's just neat to get that little weird flap of skin off the inside of the gizzard.
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It's such a weird texture.
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Well, yeah, but the important thing to remember is you don't take it off.
00:05:04.709 --> 00:05:07.165
You might as well go out there and chew on a spare tire.
00:05:07.846 --> 00:05:25.468
Yeah, yeah, no, it's when you get a load of the inside of the gizzard and you open that thing up and you see what they've been eating on and what they have for grit and, like some of my birds must be done, because I found, you know, glass and random things in there, but that piece of glass is so smooth.
00:05:25.468 --> 00:05:30.430
It's almost a marble and that skin on the inside is so tough.
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It's like a turkey farm and he was processing, I think, found a big lighter inside of Turkey's gizzard.
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Oh, I can believe that and it was here lighter.
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It had his name on it.
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He bought it and his name on it and lost it.
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I had a duck hen that was acting off and poorly, so I pulled her and I put her in a, you know, isolation because they were special ducks, they weren't that common.
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These were a Sax ducks, very pretty, but she was poorly and I only had three females.
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So I was freaking out and freaking out and I tried everything I knew how to do and she would just would not get better and on the third or fourth day she ended up passing away.
00:06:08.829 --> 00:06:09.701
So I opened her up.
00:06:09.701 --> 00:06:11.788
You know, for science, what's going on.
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Why did this bird deteriorate like that?
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She had eaten an inch and a half staple and once she had swallowed that thing, the gizzard was not strong enough to withstand a staple.
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So well where disease in the hardware disease, yeah.
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Yeah.
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The same thing in the poultry world hardware disease.
00:06:32.459 --> 00:06:35.949
I've never heard it used, but I certainly know that they do it.
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I suffer from it.
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Well, now I own one of those handheld ground magnets.
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So every time we complete a building project, we sweep the magnet over the ground, pick that stuff up.
00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:50.447
I thought you were going to say you went around and did birds with it.
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Oh no, you know there was a problem.
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You can get those handheld security wands they have at concerts.
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They're pretty cheap now and you can scan any animal very quickly and very accurately to check for hardware disease, at least if it's ferrous.
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I've only ever had it happen once in all of my time with birds.
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It was just that one time.
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Well, now they just feed cows, these giant magnets to collect anything.
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How do they get it back out?
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They don't, but it gets trapped in a safer space.
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Yes, that's been around for us.
00:07:27.985 --> 00:07:32.752
I remember seeing those when I was a kid advertised in the Cedars Farming Ranch catalog.
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They called them steel bullises.
00:07:36.026 --> 00:07:41.786
You betcha, we're giving confirmation we're giving them oh yeah, we went down a rabbit hole for sure.
00:07:42.447 --> 00:07:42.990
Yeah, we did.
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Where were we?
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We'll fix that in post-production.
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You know, lion breeding is really good because it's easier to make improvements, because you have a better idea of who the parentage is, and which brings up another topic that I will probably get into in a subsequent recording.
00:08:03.312 --> 00:08:10.547
But Mandy has seen the light now and she's ready to start doing some single mating, and that's mating one male to one female.
00:08:10.547 --> 00:08:21.730
Now you can make one male to several females, but the females are housed individually, so you know not only who the male was, but who the female was that produced that chick.
00:08:21.730 --> 00:08:35.529
If you're keeping records on it, that's how you make your best, and quickest improvement is when you can identify the male and the female that produced your really good chicks.
00:08:35.529 --> 00:08:42.312
Now, inverse of that issue, you also know the male and the female that produced really bad chicks.
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I see you.
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That's my main reason for changing my ways, because I want to know my call list first or foremost, who needs to come out.
00:08:50.139 --> 00:08:59.009
How many times do we see on Facebook groups I've got this defect or this disqualification, so I'm just removing all the birds that have it from the flock.
00:08:59.419 --> 00:09:04.770
Well, after you've spent time, space and resources to grow it to the point that you saw it.
00:09:05.633 --> 00:09:09.789
Well, true, you have to find the parents and remove them.
00:09:10.421 --> 00:09:11.504
Yeah, that's the key to it.
00:09:11.504 --> 00:09:16.613
Not only remove the birds that have it that you produce, get rid of the parent.
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Then you stop seeing it.
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That's the root of the problem.
00:09:20.644 --> 00:09:22.769
Right there is the parents that are producing the chick.
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It wasn't so bullheaded, I would have done it sooner.
00:09:27.259 --> 00:09:28.644
We all have different learning curves.
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Production quota.
00:09:30.062 --> 00:09:37.144
to me as well, this is true but, now I have the numbers to get into the nitty gritty of it, though yeah yeah, there are other rules, but some rules so.
00:09:37.144 --> 00:09:38.225
So you want to hear an analysis of some criteria.
00:09:38.846 --> 00:09:42.947
Inbreeding John, how do you feel about inbreeding and inbreeding?
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Is breeding very closely related?
00:09:45.916 --> 00:09:48.692
bird Again it's a very powerful tool.
00:09:48.692 --> 00:09:55.956
Yeah, I'm not ready to do that yet I understand the value and the power of it.
00:09:55.956 --> 00:09:59.655
Again, that's a Pandora's box I am not willing to open up.
00:10:00.547 --> 00:10:07.475
Oh, I'm going to split it wide open with my breed cross Between your Chantecler, male, and two of my breast females.
00:10:07.475 --> 00:10:13.547
I'm absolutely taking sibling to sibling to get to the bottom of what both have in there Early.
00:10:13.547 --> 00:10:18.437
I'm not going to waste three, four or five years half heartedly doing it.
00:10:18.437 --> 00:10:20.105
I'm going to go neck deep into it.
00:10:20.725 --> 00:10:24.434
Well, you have the infrastructure and the ethical outlet for your culls.
00:10:25.297 --> 00:10:36.782
Valid, and it's also not something that I would recommend new breeders to do, because it can help you in a hurry or it can hurt you in a hurry.
00:10:36.782 --> 00:10:51.592
All right, I have inbred birds a couple of times, one time for seven or eight generations to firmly establish the trait that I was after, and that was a smaller size in panels.
00:10:51.592 --> 00:11:05.037
But if you're going to inbreed, you better pay attention to the bigger of your chicks, or misery, to miss another word, if they don't have good vigor, you are just backing up in a hurry.
00:11:05.745 --> 00:11:10.017
Well, what's the real difference between line breeding and inbreeding?
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Line breeding is breeding loosely related individuals.
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So father to daughter, mother to, son.
00:11:18.432 --> 00:11:24.998
Yeah yeah, inbreeding is breeding more closely related individuals like brother and sister.
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You will bring out problems you didn't know you had, and you may also bring out really good quality you didn't know was in there either.
00:11:34.726 --> 00:11:47.135
It can go either way and it will probably do that in the same batch, like if you hatch off 30, 15 might be okay to gray and then the other 15 will be dinner.
00:11:48.087 --> 00:11:50.076
But ultimately, that's what you want to know.
00:11:51.009 --> 00:11:53.162
Or you could have scissor beaks and curly toes.
00:11:53.162 --> 00:11:59.697
Yeah, absolutely, you want to know if it's that's why you have to pair hatch to get started to figure out who threw it.
00:12:00.666 --> 00:12:07.056
Which kind of brings us to another thing, and that's the breeding value of individual birds.
00:12:07.056 --> 00:12:09.130
Mandy, what's your thought?
00:12:10.005 --> 00:12:31.066
So, with this little plan I have in my mind, my thought was to hatch every egg the two girls, or put now and grow them in batches and then do my regular selection that I do, where I look for health, I look for vigor, I look for growth rate, I look for good, positive basic chicken features, like.
00:12:31.066 --> 00:12:34.756
My first question is always how well do they chicken?
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And then sorting them down from there to get down to the best representations of the best chicken, and not really focusing too much on physical traits and variances there, because I could sort that out later.
00:12:51.544 --> 00:13:00.453
That's my thought, and then let that tell me what's buried in both and then what I need.
00:13:00.453 --> 00:13:08.578
It'll give me, like my shopping list of future selection, because that's the way it's always panned out before is even the worst birds.
00:13:08.578 --> 00:13:10.042
Tell you what you need to work on.
00:13:11.171 --> 00:13:12.794
Bring up an interesting concept.
00:13:12.794 --> 00:13:15.221
You touched on loosely keeping parts birds.
00:13:15.221 --> 00:13:18.818
Like this bird great, you're looking for blue legs always.
00:13:19.831 --> 00:13:20.111
Oh yeah.
00:13:20.111 --> 00:13:22.917
And then you have to weigh out the other traits they have.
00:13:22.917 --> 00:13:38.970
And then that's where it gets subjective and tricky too, because you can easily develop tunnel vision, like as soon as you recognize a problem and you go, oh, I need to work on this, and then you work on that so hard that you lose other things.
00:13:38.970 --> 00:13:48.950
So then that next season you have to either recapture something or pick a different trait, and then you could inadvertently lose the one thing you worked on the season prior.
00:13:48.950 --> 00:13:51.639
Like it gets really fun.
00:13:52.571 --> 00:14:00.950
It does and, honestly, I get the most satisfaction and the most enjoyment from the whole breeding process.
00:14:01.773 --> 00:14:02.556
Oh, I love that part.
00:14:03.631 --> 00:14:09.505
You know I say, okay, this bird will give me this and I've gotten.
00:14:09.505 --> 00:14:10.970
This sounds like I'm bragging.
00:14:10.970 --> 00:14:18.703
I don't mean it that way, but I've gotten to the point with my birds over the years that I know what that line is going to produce.
00:14:18.703 --> 00:14:23.179
I know what to expect and that gives you a level of comfort.
00:14:23.179 --> 00:14:30.803
And, Mandy, I think you're just now starting to see that you've got the level of comfort in your birds and what they will do.
00:14:30.803 --> 00:14:36.883
You're ready to try something new that will take you to the next level.
00:14:37.753 --> 00:14:39.599
Well, it's going to just teach me more stuff.
00:14:40.331 --> 00:14:47.842
Well, and it's important that we know that new stuff, because what got us to point from point A to point B?
00:14:47.842 --> 00:14:50.114
Probably not the same thing.
00:14:50.114 --> 00:14:51.678
It's going to get us from point B to point C.
00:14:52.751 --> 00:15:02.950
I always like to have one good science project going on in the background and usually the last several years it's just been a bloodline cross within the same breed.
00:15:02.950 --> 00:15:20.841
But I do find that I miss some of the more extreme science that I've dabbled in before, when I was looking into how barring and sex linkage worked and I went off the deep end there for a little while.
00:15:20.841 --> 00:15:27.620
And then the different comb types and how they express forward and how, because you'll see some weird stuff pop out.
00:15:27.620 --> 00:15:32.418
I've seen combs that weren't any one particular type of comb.
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It was a mishmash of craziness and so I go oh me and then I call through and Like there was one time where I did this weird hybrid project and I had gotten two seasons into it and they looked weird.
00:15:49.970 --> 00:15:52.798
You could tell these were weird project birds.
00:15:53.211 --> 00:15:57.922
But when I was processing the cockerels there was a significant difference in the texture of the tissues.
00:15:57.922 --> 00:16:07.970
And then some of these boys were 19, 20, 22 weeks old, but the connective tissue was that of like a 14-week-old bird.
00:16:07.970 --> 00:16:13.929
So the processing was still really easy and I was like where is that even coming from?
00:16:13.929 --> 00:16:25.518
And I didn't pursue it because I started to understand how much space and resources would be required to do your due diligence in, yes, an abstract kind of project like that.
00:16:25.518 --> 00:16:27.274
So I stopped it there.
00:16:27.274 --> 00:16:44.297
And then, now that I've processed so many birds and I've seen that tissue harden right at that 19, 20, 21-week point, like, well, wouldn't it be kind of nice if I did have a line of birds that didn't do that, and maybe I already had them and let them go?
00:16:44.297 --> 00:16:47.195
You know, for science yeah, for science.
00:16:48.431 --> 00:16:49.533
What about pre-potency?
00:16:49.533 --> 00:16:53.481
And you know the value of that to your breeding.
00:16:53.743 --> 00:16:53.802
If.
00:16:53.802 --> 00:17:12.404
And what John's talking about, I think, is if you have a bird that the old timers called it pre-pot, if he had a male and no matter which female you made it into, they all pretty much look like him.
00:17:12.404 --> 00:17:27.763
If you have a bird that's pre-potent for equality whether it's color type, egg production, whatever you really want to hang on to those birds because they are tremendously valuable to your breeding program.
00:17:27.763 --> 00:17:29.891
If it's a good quality.
00:17:29.891 --> 00:17:33.333
If it's a bad quality, you know they can kind of go on down the road.
00:17:33.333 --> 00:17:39.579
Pre-potent bird are Very powerful breeding troops.
00:17:40.060 --> 00:17:42.145
Is it most usually on the males?
00:17:42.767 --> 00:17:43.387
Not necessarily.
00:17:44.056 --> 00:17:46.980
Yeah, there's girls who will throw themselves forward strongly too.
00:17:46.980 --> 00:17:56.039
Yeah, doesn't that go back to them having come from like a well-cosivated linebread situation to have them absolutely that way.
00:17:56.935 --> 00:17:58.038
That's really it's.
00:17:58.038 --> 00:18:04.157
I can't ever recall a pre-boat and burn that I raised.
00:18:04.479 --> 00:18:31.492
That came from a flock mating situation the pre-poten birds that are the pre-poten birds that I had was from my linebread birds, because you remove, you come through that process over the years, removing undesirable traits and concentrating the good traits or the more desirable traits, and that's when you begin to see pre-poten birds popping up in your flock.
00:18:31.492 --> 00:18:58.017
I Don't mean that to say that you're going to get 10 or 15 of them every year, because the chances that happens just not there, but you may get one or two and if you start building your flock around those Few pre-poten individuals, you're you're going to have a flock of birds that will not just suck off of anything else, whether it's showing, whether it's production, egg laying or meat, it's it.
00:18:58.017 --> 00:19:01.502
Those are the kind of birds that can build your reputation as a breeder.
00:19:01.963 --> 00:19:02.404
Absolutely.
00:19:02.404 --> 00:19:04.848
They fall within the if you're breeding to a standard.
00:19:05.536 --> 00:19:10.087
Yes, yes, but if you're not breeding to a standard, how can you prove your birds?
00:19:10.996 --> 00:19:12.922
You have no you can't, you just have chickens.
00:19:13.423 --> 00:19:21.103
I think that brings up the importance of breeding to a Written standard or any standard or just your flock goals.
00:19:21.103 --> 00:19:23.489
I mean you need to choose which way you're going to go and stick with it.
00:19:24.376 --> 00:19:31.261
I think the mark of a hatchery and how good their quality is is when you do buy a hundred chicks and you watch them grow.
00:19:31.261 --> 00:19:33.928
How similar to each other are they?
00:19:33.928 --> 00:19:37.165
What sort of faults do you see within it?
00:19:37.165 --> 00:19:38.470
How prevalent is it?
00:19:38.470 --> 00:19:41.521
But, more importantly, what's the consistency like?
00:19:41.521 --> 00:19:57.282
Because I've ordered different breeds from the same place and they all had different levels of consistency and quality, where the one variety might not be that great but the other one actually is not bad.
00:19:57.282 --> 00:20:14.231
And that level of consistency from that sort of environment all came from the foundation that they got started with when they started to Build up their numbers and the practices they employed to select their future breeders.
00:20:14.733 --> 00:20:15.075
Yeah, yes.
00:20:15.819 --> 00:20:17.913
And and how potent their beginners were.
00:20:17.913 --> 00:20:17.953
I.
00:20:18.856 --> 00:20:22.626
I remember Bob James, who's an old poultry judge.
00:20:22.626 --> 00:20:29.586
He was very straightforward and he was from Tennessee so he didn't mince words.
00:20:29.586 --> 00:20:36.200
He talked kind of slow, which is he always said you start with crappy birds.
00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:38.026
All year ago to have his crappy bird.
00:20:38.876 --> 00:20:42.835
Ish mostly right, yeah, cuz I've started with some crappy birds.
00:20:42.835 --> 00:20:51.203
But then I would hatch and hatch and hatch and grow, and grow and grow and I'd find you know three To move forward with, and after that they got a lot better.
00:20:51.203 --> 00:20:53.578
But it just takes a long time.
00:20:53.578 --> 00:20:55.443
It's a time commitment to do it that way.
00:20:55.564 --> 00:21:06.674
Yeah, and, and sadly Most people and I don't, I'm not putting anybody down most people don't have the stick to it even this to do that.
00:21:06.674 --> 00:21:08.640
You know they kind of lose.
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:12.211
They see, hey, this is a lot of work, I'm gonna do something else here.
00:21:13.012 --> 00:21:13.694
We don't have the space.
00:21:13.694 --> 00:21:14.900
They need to pull it off.
00:21:14.900 --> 00:21:15.623
Yeah, oh yeah.
00:21:16.396 --> 00:21:19.653
That's how I ended up where I'm at, because I realized the space constraints.
00:21:19.653 --> 00:21:26.644
And now here I am, sitting on this big old barn full of chickens, and I started with that little bitty backyard coop that would hold 12.
00:21:26.644 --> 00:21:30.482
And then the deeper and deeper I got into it and the more I learned.
00:21:30.482 --> 00:21:34.538
But now it's exploded into this other Avenue.
00:21:34.578 --> 00:21:46.022
I never thought I'd be in it puts a Brand new meaning on to the more you know, the more you grow, and some folks cases is knowledge.
00:21:46.022 --> 00:21:50.641
In some cases it's just Masses of a bird get getting over done with it.
00:21:51.021 --> 00:21:53.448
But no, I did learn to not do that.
00:21:53.448 --> 00:21:54.786
Yeah, I don't.
00:21:54.786 --> 00:22:07.983
There's a couple of traps I almost fell into, where I was keeping birds for the sake of keeping birds, and and then I would hatch from them and I would get chaos as a result, and my OCD was not happy about that.
00:22:09.258 --> 00:22:17.027
We we've talked about a lot of things here and we talked about knowing where your birds came from parents and you know that kind of stuff.
00:22:17.027 --> 00:22:21.727
But to do that you got to do what you got to have really good records.
00:22:21.727 --> 00:22:31.054
You got to have a good way to identify your bird and if you don't keep good records you can't make improvements because you don't know where they came from.
00:22:31.074 --> 00:22:52.494
And the short-term and the long-term Good record keeping will help you Remove undesirable traits from your bird and that just comes from the ability of recognizing who the parents are down to the individual, so you can backtrack and remove them and stop it there, right, and then you're only moving forward with your better results and those parents that produce those.
00:22:53.578 --> 00:23:02.632
We don't have pedigrees and poultry the way they do in dog or Beef cattle or dairy cattle or hogs or sheep, and it's just not there.
00:23:02.632 --> 00:23:09.645
So To do that you really got to develop your own system, a numbering system of some sort.
00:23:09.645 --> 00:23:16.321
I started out Just kind of taking the shotgun approach, but I quickly learned that that wasn't working.
00:23:16.321 --> 00:23:23.555
So I switched over to using a combination of toe punches and then wing bands.
00:23:23.555 --> 00:23:30.236
The toe punch I could tell at a glance what family particular bird was from.
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