March 25, 2024
Have A Good Flock From A Small Start-Part 2
This episode is a detailed discussion on breeding poultry, focusing on selecting high-quality stock and breeding to a written standard. We cover line breeding, finding good breeders, selecting traits, and the time and patience required for successful breeding. We emphasize the need for patience, dedication, and the importance of defining goals before breeding poultry.
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WEBVTT
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Hi, I'm John Gunterman, and I want to welcome you to another episode of the Poultry Keepers podcast.
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Joining me in the studio are Mandelyn Royal and Rip Stalvey, the rest of our podcast team.
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And we're looking forward to visiting with you and talking poultry from feathers to function.
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Does this tie in with you having written out goals of what exactly you want to accomplish with them?
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Yes, this ties into the American Poultry Association's standard of perfection.
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Ah, aiming for perfection.
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Well aiming for Shoot for the moon.
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You're never gonna make it, but you'll reach higher than if you never reached at all.
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This is the bird that's got the best confirmation, and she is a rockstar layer.
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She does not take a pause.
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I've never had a bird that did not take a day off in her weekly lay cycle.
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That's amazing.
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I literally can set my watch by her.
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The fact that we started recording a couple of minutes late meant that I got her egg at 98.
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2 degrees as she was walking off
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Of those female birds that you could build an entire program around.
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Yes, I want to, if she if her and the two roosters throw great chicks, she is one of my foundational birds.
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I've got plenty of more birds coming from my breeder.
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He's setting 24, so when I go down, I'm going to pick up 24 chicks and Hopefully 24 eggs to bring home in April.
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And maybe I might find another rock star female or male in that batch.
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And I'm fine with being very selective and only keeping the best of the best, rather than the one that sucked the least.
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John, you bring us to another point here, and that's the need To source high quality stock from
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the same stock
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that will move your birds further faster than just getting any old bird and mating them together.
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And I don't consider that an outcross at all.
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It's a year later.
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I'm getting eggs from the same hens and same roosters that I got last year, just a year later from the same breeder.
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That's not an outcross in my mind at
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all.
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We're going to get into this.
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How do you select stock?
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Coming up in just a few minutes, but I just wanted to point that out because that is probably one of the most important decisions you will ever make is getting the best possible stock you can find and you can afford.
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And even if you can't afford it, if you find the best possible stock and talk to the breeder and set up a plan look, I realistically can afford, this many chicks and eggs my first year.
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Maybe they'll work with you.
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Especially if you're going about things in a steady approach and The really good breeders, they're going to be willing to help you the year after that, and the year after that, for as long as they're doing it because they're not always in a position to be advertising because they don't need to.
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And I'm always in the case where I go, wow, I wish I had a really good place to stash this hen that was not here, but safe.
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Stays in the breed community.
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Stays in the community, stays local, I can always reach out and get some eggs back or take her back if I need to.
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And I consider it little genetic caches or safe deposit boxes around the neighborhood.
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With the heavy predation that we have, I think it's important.
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One of the things that I think we need to be really dead serious that we ask ourselves before embarking on this kind of journey is Are you willing to sacrifice quality just to save money?
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I've tried it, it never works out that well.
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It never does, so if you're one of those people that like to do that, this is not the program for you, trust
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me.
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The irony on the food side of it is Up until I got really into animal nutrition, I didn't start saving money until I stopped trying to save money on food.
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Until I started feeding grit at the moment of hatch with the freshest possible ingredients and a full nutritional profile, that is when, my feed bill dropped by 20%.
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Between the grit and the excellent nutrition, that's what saved me the money.
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And the more you condense the feed is, the less of it they're going to feel compelled to eat.
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So the less manure we have to dispose of, the less waste, the less the pancreas and kidneys, and just the less the bird has to work inappropriately to extract that nutrition, the better.
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The gizzard is there for a reason.
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Gizzard function requires grit.
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If you have grit in the gizzard, the bird's natural physiology can do what it's supposed to do.
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And they're going to get all the nutrition they need out of what they've ingested with no waste and no extra work on the whole rest of the renal system.
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So you're not going to have very stinky, ammonia smelling manure.
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That's always a benefit because it improves the air quality.
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And it's better for the birds.
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If you can smell the manure, it's already way too late.
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I think the last question I'm going to throw out there.
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And to me it's really an important one, all of them are important, but do you think that breeding to a written standard is the right thing to do?
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If you don't, please don't try, because you're just going to mess up some otherwise good birds.
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I'm just being honest here.
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You can start with the best birds that you can possibly find, but if you don't breed them to their written standard.
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You're wasting your time and your money.
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You need to select properly.
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And I'll do that.
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as they were when they first came to you, because they were already bred to a standard.
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And if you go down your own path with that, they're going to change and they're not going to be the same bird anymore.
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And the quality, when we talk about quality poultry, it is because they reflect their standard.
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So if you go off and do your own thing, they're not the same.
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And now their value is much different.
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I say as soon as you change any one aspect about their nutrition, husbandry, housing, anything, they are no longer the birds that you bought.
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And they're not going to produce the same.
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I strongly feel that if you're not breeding according to a written standard, You're just wasting your time.
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And it doesn't have to be something out of the American Poultry Association standard of perfection.
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It could be, there's a German standard, there's a British standard there's a French standard.
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Have a standard.
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Have something that you could fall back on and say, what do I do if it comes down to a binary decision, keep or cull?
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What are you basing that decision on?
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That's going to build your flock consistency though.
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If you select to the standard, eventually your birds are going to look more and more the same.
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It's going to become more and more heterogeneous, or heterogeneous, or however you pronounce that.
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The center of the bell curve.
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I'm always selecting for the statistical center of the bell curve.
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I've explained this before, but that's the way I want my flock to look.
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I want it to be very generic in the middle and no outliers.
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I don't want small birds.
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I don't want large birds.
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I want birds that represent the standard.
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When I come around to believing that and looking at, when I set goals, I want this many birds for the freezer.
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I want this many eggs per year.
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I want them to Be able to look this way, perform this way.
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And that comes from breeding to a standard.
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And before I even really put a lot of thought into it, I was one of those people who was hybridizing my little hardout with some wild looking birds.
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And yeah, they were neat.
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But, there was no uniformity, there was no consistency, I could not put any expectations on those birds whatsoever.
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They were just eye candy.
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That brings up the whole concept and the term of family.
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They start to look the same, they start to act the same, they start to be the same.
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It's when you drive by your neighbor's family reunion, and you look at them all, and you go, yeah, they all they all have this cheekbone or this chin.
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You could tell that all 50 of these people, even though they're closely or loosely related, they all look generally the same, and your flock should too.
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It's the only way you can start to have expectations.
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But unlike humans, crossbreeding is good, linebreeding is bad, inbreeding is very bad.
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With Everything else, the genetic pool, is so broad and so wide that as long as you do the job correctly, you're going to be able to reduce any incidence of loss of vigor.
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And that's something that a lot of people get concerned about, is this, they've been taught that inbreeding depression is a thing, and it's very bad to inbreed.
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Why don't we get into the nuts and bolts now of how to go about doing it.
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We've laid the groundwork, now let's start building the house.
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How about that?
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Sounds good.
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You've heard us talk, I don't know how many times, about setting goals.
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Your goals will help drive you to where you want your birds to be in 5 years, in 10 years, in 20 years.
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If you don't have any goals, you're just it's a hit and miss proposition.
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And one of those goals should be, I think, how are you going to find good quality stock?
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How are you going to get them?
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I think one of the best things that has worked for me, and I've had people approach me from the same attitude and it really helps, is first define what you want in your birds.
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Do you want a more production oriented flock?
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Do you want a more exhibition oriented flock?
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Do you want That'll help drive where you're going to look for birds.
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Once you've established that, find out, and it's gonna take some time, it's gonna take some research, and this is important.
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Do your research, because dig into it.
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And then, once you've identified the top two or three people you want to approach, start by building a relationship with them.
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This makes a huge difference.
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I've had people that wanted my birds, but they took the time to build a relationship with me.
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And I, frankly, wound up giving them better birds than I would have otherwise.
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There's just trust and rapport.
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Yeah.
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And the genetic safe deposit box that I explained earlier.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And, like I said, it's going to take some time.
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Don't rush this process.
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Don't rush this process.
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Let it take time.
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Because the more time you take up front, the less time you're going to be putting into it on the back end.
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Sure.
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I went through some incredible expense and trouble to obtain some Chanticleers legally across the border from Canada to have them legally imported.
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Even as eggs was very expensive and required the employment of two veterinarians and an attorney on the Canadian side to get 36 eggs back into Vermont, across the Canadian border.
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And unfortunately I went through all of that just to find out right now in the Eastern townships of Canada, they've got a problem with blue shanks Chanticleers from somebody did an outcross at some point and it's there.
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And.
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I got them, and all those birds were delicious.
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It goes back to being prepared for setbacks, when you're faced with things like that.
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But, don't, and I see this all the time, and it makes me absolutely nuts, don't be in a hurry to get birds.
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I have seen people settle for really poor quality birds because they couldn't find what they really wanted.
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Don't settle for, get the best you can get your hands on.
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And one way to look at that, too, do you want to have birds right now that need five years of additional breeding work, or do you want to wait?
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Two years to get birds that don't need much breeding work at all, and they have you going somewhere within three years.
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Because if you go for the lesser quality, because you can get it right now, what type of time commitment does that turn into?
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Those lesser quality birds are real uphill battle.
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I'm so glad I started over.
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I had some good quality Chanticleers and I eventually got a hold of what are generally regarded as the best quality Chanticleer in our region.
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And growing them out side by side, they were half the age and already the same size and the vigor and the temperament.
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I called up the local college that I am affiliated with and I'm like, Hey, do you guys want my old Chanticleers?
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I've got some new genetics that I want to grow out.
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And they were tripping over themselves to get a hold of them.
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And then their livestock manager came over on a field trip and she went.
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Wow, now I understand why we have your old birds.
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Yes, and you guys are getting eggs next spring from these.
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Again, little genetic safe deposit boxes, but I'm also, I want these students at the college to be working with the best genetics possible.
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It's just going to increase their overall enjoyment of the process.
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I think one of the really side benefits, a great side benefit.
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It is that it is a tremendous way to find yourself a mentor.
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And you may not agree with everything that they tell you, and that's okay.
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It's what got them to where they are, and you're going to have your own thing.
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But it's important to understand that's where your birds came from.
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When you're building this relationship, it's also an opportunity for you to learn.
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Because you can invest time in finding out how the breeder breeds his birds, how does he manage his birds.
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What does he do?
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He's obviously successful, or you wouldn't be going to it.
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So try to emulate as much of what they do in your program.
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But something as simple as your daily life schedule could be different enough to affect the way that those birds respond.
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Are you up at 4 a.
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m.
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feeding, or are you letting them out at 7.
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30 in the morning to feed?
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Are they going straight out to pasture, or are they going straight out onto fresh Rations.
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Does the light come on automatically or does it have to wait until your finger hits the switch?
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Does the neighbor who drives by at 5.
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30 in the morning have their high beams or low beams on when they come by?
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It actually makes a difference.
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My rooster will start crowing when my neighbor leaves with the high beams on versus the low beams.
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'cause they drive by and just enough light gets through somehow to the rooster goes, oh hey, it's morning.
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And they're like, no, it's really not but all these externalities that I never would've thought of until I lived with chickens this closely for this long.
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Yeah, that's true.
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What I've learned in the last eight years.
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Even just our small flock expansion, it's been exponential because I went from having, five or six birds to having a hundred at any given time.
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And just the difference in management, husbandry, the chore load, keeping everybody the way they need to be kept, keeping the waters refreshed and clean.
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It was a big transition that carried its own learning curve.
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Okay, Rip.
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So now that you've got us all primed and chomping at the bit, so to speak, between the earlier discussion and the PK360 live stream that was recently on.
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How do you do it?
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It's not a great secret, but, it is a little scary, and I'm afraid to mess up my birds.
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I think we all are when we first started out.
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We're all concerned about that.
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And it is, my method, okay, is a form of line breeding, and we talked about line breeding in our PK 360 live stream last night, but there's a lot more we didn't have time to get into in an hour show.
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There really is.
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Let's I'll tell you what, just let me start out by explaining
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I got my notebook and my pen.
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You talk, I'll write and draw pictures.
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I spent about a year and a half researching what birds I wanted and from who I wanted to get those birds.
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And I also spent a lot of time studying different reading methods and different ways to go about it.
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And, the gentleman I wound up getting my Rhode Island Reds from, E.
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W.
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Reese, was very kind enough to share his breeding methods with me, even before I approached him about getting birds from him.
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Here's what he told me.
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He maintained his birds by breeding what he called family lines.
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Now, some folks would know that by some other names, maybe the clan concept.
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But, basically, he maintained multiple Breeding pens.
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I think he had eight different breeding pens.
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And all those females in each one of those pens were related to each other.
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They were like mother, daughter, grandmothers, aunts, nieces.
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They were all related.
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And only females from that pen would go back into that pen.
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So that gets into the concept of how I told you about I maintained my birds through the female side of the mating.
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Because I If I was doing it today, I would go to somebody and say, okay, look, here's what I want.
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I want six full sisters.
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And I would get adults because with adults, what is what you got.
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Okay.
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That puts you about a year to year and a half ahead of if you start with eggs or chicks.
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I'd get six full sisters.
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If they don't have full sisters, then I would settle for pen sisters, all from the same breeding pen.
00:18:45.563 --> 00:18:50.182
And then I would get three males from the same breeder.
00:18:50.982 --> 00:18:54.452
But the males are not related to the females I'm getting.
00:18:55.252 --> 00:18:58.982
And starting with those pen sisters, divide those into three different pens.
00:18:59.782 --> 00:19:09.202
And by starting with full sisters, you're going to really increase your odds of building the uniformity in your birds really quickly.
00:19:09.833 --> 00:19:14.492
Okay, but they've got to be really good quality birds.
00:19:15.292 --> 00:19:17.133
Here again, don't settle for it.
00:19:17.932 --> 00:19:18.553
Go for it.
00:19:18.673 --> 00:19:20.353
Go for the best that you can find.
00:19:21.153 --> 00:19:25.643
Now, for the males that I make from them, I get three males not related to those.
00:19:25.653 --> 00:19:28.663
They could be from three entirely different breeding pens, that's okay.
00:19:29.462 --> 00:19:34.502
But, I would use one male over each pen of two females.
00:19:35.303 --> 00:19:49.053
And I would try to get the male if I had a female or two in one pen that was weak in undercolor, then I wanted to make sure that I had a male that was Pretty standard requirements for undercolor.
00:19:49.482 --> 00:19:52.163
The same thing for type flaws or anything like that.
00:19:52.163 --> 00:19:56.772
You want your males to offset where your females are lacking.
00:19:57.573 --> 00:20:12.923
And then I would hatch however many chicks I needed or I thought I could raise effectively and efficiently and then sort through those after they mature and pick out one or two females from each pen to keep.
00:20:13.472 --> 00:20:16.762
For breeders, put them back into their original pen.
00:20:16.762 --> 00:20:19.403
If they came out of pen 1, they go back into pen 1.
00:20:19.403 --> 00:20:22.423
If they came out of pen 2, they go back into pen 2.
00:20:22.423 --> 00:20:23.212
And so on.
00:20:24.012 --> 00:20:30.563
And I would breed again the following year, still keeping the original male in those three pens.
00:20:31.363 --> 00:20:40.972
And then I would repeat the process, where I would go through, sort out birds, and pick the best one or two females from each pen, and put them back in that breeding pen.
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all.
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