May 27, 2024
Broodies, Incubators and Eggs-Part Two
In this episode, John, Mandelyn, and Rip talk about the different types of incubators, broody hen management, and the important role nutrition plays in good-quality hatching eggs.
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WEBVTT
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Hi, I'm John Gunterman, and I want to welcome you to another episode of the Poultry Keepers podcast.
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Joining me in the studio are Mandelyn Royal and Rip Stalvey, the rest of our podcast team, and we're looking forward to visiting with you and talking poultry from feathers to function.
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The absolute best way that I've discovered to ship eggs is to source yourself a live chick or live bird shipper box, put some padding in the bottom of it, put your eggs in the bottom of that.
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And maybe if you have a sacrificial bird, throw them in there and pay the 120 it costs to have it overnighted.
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Because those boxes ride in the cab.
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They are treated so well because it has hand delivered, hand carried everywhere because there's a live animal in it.
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And
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just the box alone gets a great deal of respect from a postal carrier.
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Yes,
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I've got a really good story about that.
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I got some New Hampshire hatching eggs from a guy out in Oregon, but I said, I'm going to send you a box for you to put those eggs in and I sent him one of those Horizon single bird carrier boxes and I told him, put some packing peanuts down in the bottom and wrap the eggs in bubble wrap.
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Put them in there upright, not laying down, put more peanuts on the top, and then take a piece of cardboard that'll fit inside that and put down on them, don't smash them, but just lay it down on top and then tape it in place so that prevents any up and down movement.
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Lo and behold, when they showed up at the post office, local postal clerk called me and she said, Mr.
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Stalvey, your birds are here.
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I said, oh good, I'll be right there.
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She said just be prepared because I think they're dead.
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No noise coming from the box.
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That's what she said.
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She said, they're not making any noise.
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I'm really afraid they're dead.
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And when I got down there, she said, you be careful about opening it.
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I'm afraid they're dead.
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I said, ma'am, if there's any noise coming out of that box, something's wrong.
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She said, what do you mean?
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I said those aren't birds.
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Those are eggs.
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She said, why did you put them in a live bird box?
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I said, because they get more respect if you ship them that way.
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And she looked at me in the light bulb and you could tell in her eyes the light bulb had gone off.
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She said, that's brilliant.
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Yeah,
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that is pretty smart.
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And for what you're investing, it doesn't really cost all that much more.
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And you could probably, how many eggs fit in there?
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Maybe like 25, 30 or so?
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Oh my gosh, she sent me 48 and there was room left over.
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I noticed when I did ship some birds out west the shipping on that box with the weight of it, it was just shy of eight pounds and they told me there was an eight pound cutoff.
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And then it was 90 to 100 in shipping alone for that box, but the birds did good.
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They survived and everybody was happy, but the expense was definitely quite high.
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But then when I priced out shipping for the big box of 56 eggs, that's going to run$105 in shipping alone.
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So that's actually pretty comparable.
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Yes, it is.
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It is.
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I want to ask you guys a question.
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Would you ever ask somebody you're considering getting hatching eggs from to tell you about their nutrition program?
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Absolutely.
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And if you would, why?
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Yeah.
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Why?
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The resiliency of the yolk to stay suspended where it needs to be, the connective what do they call those, John?
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Yeah, that.
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And then the density of the whites, because if you have real runny whites, that egg is not going to ship well at all.
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So I would expect them to know their nutrition, but also like their egg quality.
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When you break that egg open, how thick is the white?
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Because that's what is supporting that egg in transit.
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And then also the age of the eggs that are getting sent, because when they're freshly laid, That air cell isn't there yet.
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So if you receive eggs and you candle them, you should only see like a three or four day old air cell.
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It should be pretty little.
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And the older they are, the more chance you have of having detached air cells, bubbly air cells, and saddled air cells where they split and can move around the egg.
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So that's why the freshness.
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But then also the nutrition matters a lot and how that egg is going to hold up.
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So all the nutrition that hen is storing in the yolk is what that chick is going to feed and develop and live off of while it's in the shell.
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So we want to make all those essential amino acids and everything available, all the essential building blocks to set that chick up for success in the shell.
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Oh yeah, because it's totally possible to hatch chicks that already have a vitamin deficiency if those adults were deficient.
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So let's say everything goes pretty well and you get your eggs, you set them, you get about 50 percent to hatch, but then two of them pop off with wry neck right out of the egg.
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That straight back to mother hen nutrition.
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It stands to reason for every species on the planet.
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Human mothers, oh, you're pregnant?
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Bam.
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Start taking the folic acid.
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Here's your nutrition regimen for the next, however months.
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And, responding to your body's cravings.
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I lived vicariously through my wife's two pregnancies, and I believe that There is a strong maternal drive to get those essential nutrients into you to help your developing child.
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And we need to make that available to our birds, just like our human babies.
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We haven't talked about the different types of incubators yet, like the still air, forced air.
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Cause I first started incubating with a light bulb and that was even using home eggs.
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I maybe had 50 percent hatch because it was so inconsistent.
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And from there I went to the good old fashioned wafer thermostat and a still air and then I've used a couple of different incubators coming from there and each one had very particular operating methods and you have to watch some of those cheaper incubators because they may have that temperamental operation that you have to learn.
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Like you might have to go through five batches of eggs before you really get it dialed in.
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And by the fourth or fifth batch of eggs, your incubator starting to get a little dirty and a little worn, and you need to get in there and deep clean it to keep your temperature and humidity regulation running on point,
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right?
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Because those sensors are small and every hatch is going to have a little explosion chick dust.
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And when that sticks to the sensors, it's not gonna perform well.
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Chances are the temperature's not gonna get as high as it needs to get because it's not reading correctly because it's got fuzz on it.
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Or it's swinging too slowly.
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It's not responding fast enough.
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Because of the fuzzes on the sensor so it can overheat and underheat and, stress your eggs.
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All these variables to consider, right?
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Several years ago, I was using the Genesis 1588, and about two years in, the control panel went bad, and the parts weren't available when I needed them to be, so I ordered a new unit.
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And they had made an improvement to the humidity tray because it used to have just three cells to put water in.
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So humidity is determined by how much surface area of water there is.
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So if you need to raise your humidity, you have to increase the surface area of the water.
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So the new and improved tray had five different channels so that you could really tweak it and dial it in.
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I thought that was really neat.
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So every once in a while they'll upgrade units and make them better, especially, I know you guys like the hatching time and I haven't had the pleasure of using those yet, but you can dial those in digitally, which is almost set and forget.
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Yes, precisely.
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And that works for me because I get confused and overwhelmed easily and forget things.
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And I got little alarms that start beeping if things go wrong.
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I will say about my hatching time, I have never had an incubator that maintained the heat and the humidity exactly where I had set it, the way this one does.
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I would purposely go in there multiple times trying to catch a variation in temperature or humidity.
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Never could.
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Good insulation and good controlling circuitry.
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Have you guys used the the Govee sensors that do
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heat and temperature?
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I don't think they're accurate enough.
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Mine seem to be pretty accurate.
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They were a gift.
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And I like how it stores a week's worth of data.
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That's really great.
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It's reflecting what the units are saying, so far.
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But I bet they would be susceptible to chick dust as well, because they have a little, almost screen port.
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Yeah.
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I'll have to use a can of air and blow them out every once in a while.
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I don't care.
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I've used many different forms of hygrometers.
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And I don't care which one I use.
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The inexpensive ones never are as trustworthy and reliable and as accurate as the one that you have to pay a little bit more for.
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It's definitely a case of you get what you pay for with those, I do believe.
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Yeah, with anything.
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Except hatching eggs.
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You can definitely overpay for those.
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Let's talk a little bit about egg mills or scammers.
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Oh, there's so many now.
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What are some of the things that should be a red flag in somebody's mind?
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For a scammer or for a mill because those are very different because the scammer is just gonna take your money You're not actually gonna receive anything.
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As I mentioned pictures of birds where the backgrounds are grossly different.
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Oh on Facebook Yeah, if you look at farm pages check for little angry faces because they will block you after They've taken your money But the angry faces, you can still leave reactions to their posts.
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You just can't comment.
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So if you see those little angry faces through multiple posts, plus the birds are all different, the coops are all different because when go out and look at your own setup, like you can tell that there's a consistency to the building there, and then you can check the trees and photos.
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If they have palm trees in one image.
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And oak trees in their next image.
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You already know those are different parts of the country and they're using fake pictures.
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Yes.
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I pointed it out.
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You should be able to.
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Ask them what their fertility and hatchability rates are.
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Say, if you set 100 eggs there, how many develop and how many hatch?
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If they say 100%, I'd almost be a little skeptical.
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I would agree with that, yeah.
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Yeah, I can't do that.
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I'm happy with 75 percent overall.
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And then the egg mills, like if you ask how many different varieties and they say, I have, All of these popular breeds, then you're oh, okay this might be a for profit operation and not necessarily about the bird.
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And then you have to decide, is it worth getting started through them, or do you want to keep looking for someone who has your flock goals?
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Start with, are they NPIP certified?
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And what's that number?
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And you should be able to go to any state and look that up.
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Yeah, and check
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the
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database.
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If they're not NPIP, stop.
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You don't want them.
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Period.
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Explain what NPIP for those who may not be aware, John.
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It's the National Poultry Improvement Program.
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It was started several years ago to basically wipe out a few of the more prevalent poultry diseases.
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It was pullorum originally.
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And now they're using that to monitor avian influenza and a couple other transmittable diseases.
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And it's real simple.
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A state inspector comes out, takes a blood sample, your birds pass, you get an NPIP certification, and then you're legally allowed to ship across state lines.
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Yeah, and there's more that they'll test for, but you pay extra for those additional tests.
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I think what's included in most states is the avian influenza and the pulorum.
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But anyone who's willing to ship out of state and break the rules, For the sake of a sale, you gotta question their integrity at that point.
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I don't do it that often, or I'm just trying to recoup some feed cost, or
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I just thought of something that folks need to be aware of when they're sourcing hashing eggs, is the time of the year.
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And by that, eggs that are laid early in the hatching season, sometimes can have reduced fertility because they know they got to light the females to get the eggs, but they forget that males require light and they require more light earlier than females do before they can become fertile.
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Sometimes those eggs early on in the hatching season are not going to give you as good fertility as the ones in the midpoint or the late point.
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And down here, the late point is bad, too, because of the hot weather and humidity, which shoots fertility and hatchability into the foot.
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Yeah, that's true.
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And then, are the sellers willing to break open a week's worth of eggs to monitor that before shipping?
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Or are they shipping everything and just apologizing if you got dud eggs, and then they blame the transit.
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You really have to monitor that fertility to know when it takes an uptick.
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But some people are really just trying to get those sales and they're not even checking.
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And you need to be aware of the weather on both ends of this deal.
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And in
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transit.
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Your weather and where is the egg shipment originating from.
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If they're experiencing freezing cold weather, then, hey, I don't want you to send me any eggs right now.
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I always prefer that over too warm, because the eggs can start to spontaneously incubate if it's too warm in the truck.
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That can't happen if it's too cool.
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I'm hoping by switching to the double boxing that it provides more insulation, especially using bubble wrap because the air pockets will insulate quite a bit.
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But down there, you're always hot by our standards, at least.
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Oh yeah.
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Poor Rip down there in Florida and the sand and humidity.
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No, but we've already had high nineties here.
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96, 97, 98.
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Yeah.
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It's too hot.
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I want to say one other thing about ordering eggs and that is consider ordering more eggs than you think you'll need.
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At least twice.
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We talked
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about that before that, don't expect more than 50 percent hatch if that.
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So if you want a dozen chicks, you better order at least a couple of dozen eggs.
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Yeah, that's true.
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If you get more than that, hey, that's gravy.
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But they're not all going to hatch, and I see so many people, I've seen auctions, six eggs, golly bum, I'll be doing good if I get two or three chicks out of those six eggs.
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Or just one, and it's gonna be a boy.
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Let's talk about broody hens now.
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Let's shift gears to broody hens.
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Honestly, it's been many years since I've hatched eggs with broody hens.
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I've become almost strictly, for all practical purposes, I'd only use incubators.
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Mandy and John, I know you guys have done some of that.
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What's your experiences using broody hens?
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What are some of the pluses and some of the minuses?
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I think, You can't compare the health and vigor of a hen hatched chick and hen raised.
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If I have a hen that goes broody the very first thing I do is I go to my incubator and I find the oldest eggs that are in there ready to hatch and I slip them under her.
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I do want to break her brood as soon as possible to get her back to work, but I need to fulfill that mothering instinct so she hatches out the eggs and raises them.
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And that's a trait that I.
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Want to preserve in my birds.
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So I encourage that.
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I just don't want the health consequences of her sitting on them for up to a month and the impact that does to her.
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I want to keep her in good shape until the molt.
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So my breed, the American Bresse, they're not known for going broody and they're supposed to be a non setter, but every once in a while, I'll still find.
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A broody or two, and I like to put her through her paces to figure out if she's gonna be a good mother or a bad mother.
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And sometimes you do need to let them try twice, because the first time they'll botch it.
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And typically once you look at the statistics, a broody hen has a 50 percent success rate, but that's accounting for those first time mothers who might stomp an egg while it's pipped and smash it, and then, I always pull them and put them in their own space, and that'll tell me if the stress of that move didn't bother her at all.
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So a really good and stuck broody, you point her at eggs, and she'll walk and sit right on top of them.
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But if you change her location and point her at eggs, and she panics and wants to get back to where she was, that'll actually probably break her, which is what just happened to me with the broody I had.
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Episode two is going to be how to break a broody hen because I broke her.
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So if she tries again, that'll be on her.
00:17:44.753 --> 00:17:57.413
And if she just never sticks that well, then I'm going to take her as a cull for being a terrible mother, because a broody hen is going to raise about 12, 14 chicks or so, and it's going to take her.
00:17:57.759 --> 00:17:59.019
About nine weeks.
00:17:59.019 --> 00:18:10.608
By the time she sat for three weeks and then raised them up to around six weeks old or so, a non setting hen would have laid 45 eggs in that amount of time that an incubator could have hatched.
00:18:11.249 --> 00:18:15.848
So she needs to be a really good, strong broody for me to even fool with her.
00:18:16.148 --> 00:18:20.739
And if she's not that, and she's not going to be laying eggs for me, then I don't need her at all.
00:18:21.538 --> 00:18:22.499
If you're going to be a
00:18:22.499 --> 00:18:23.808
mother, be a really good one.
00:18:24.608 --> 00:18:35.888
You mentioned something that a lot of folks don't take into account, and that when you have a hen that goes brooding and starts setting on eggs, your overall egg production for your flock just dropped.
00:18:36.689 --> 00:18:39.788
So she needs to be successful, otherwise she's a waste of time.
00:18:40.538 --> 00:18:40.929
Exactly.
00:18:41.729 --> 00:18:42.159
Yeah.
00:18:42.959 --> 00:18:43.239
Precisely.
00:18:44.038 --> 00:18:50.608
So once she's proved herself that she is a good broody, I want to preserve those genetics, but, make it as quick as possible.
00:18:50.989 --> 00:18:55.548
Slip some eggs that are You know, getting ready to pip right under her, break her off three or four days early.
00:18:56.348 --> 00:19:02.288
But the health and vigor, we got a chick in fact, that it was recently adopted by Esther Feathers.
00:19:02.419 --> 00:19:13.939
Her name is October because I had a hen go broody in October and I slipped an egg under her that was just getting ready to hatch and we had four inches of snow out there.
00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:19.548
And this hen and this chick just were amazing and stupid cute.
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And the, that chick turned out to be an amazing bird.
00:19:25.479 --> 00:19:35.848
Now, one thing I won't do with a broody is trust her with valuable eggs until she has proven herself, because I see a lot of people saying, Oh, I have two broody hens right now.
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