Sept. 23, 2024

Bresse with Mandelyn Royal-Part 1

Show Notes
Transcript

This episode of the Poultry Keepers Podcast, features Rip Stalvey, Jeff Mattocks, Carey Blackman, and Mandelyn Royal, discussing the American Bresse breed of chicken.

Mandelyn provides an in-depth look at the history, varieties, and unique characteristics of the Bresse, which originates from France. The conversation covers breeding strategies, including traits to look for in dual-purpose qualities, the importance of growth rate and body structure, and the challenges of breeding for consistent quality.

Other topics include the temperament of Bresse chickens, dealing with environmental conditions, and best practices for starting and maintaining a flock. The episode also touches on common issues like black spots on white Bresse and concludes with practical advice on managing a flock throughout the year.

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WEBVTT

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Hi! Welcome to the Poultry Keepers Podcast.

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I'm Rip Stalvey, and together with Mandelyn Royal and John Gunterman, we're your co hosts for this show, and it's our mission to help you have a happy, healthy, and productive flock.

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Mandelyn Royal joins us tonight and we are going to be talking about American Bresse.

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Isn't that right, Mandelyn?

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Absolutely.

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There's a lot to go into with them because they've been around for a pretty long time.

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Just not in the U S for very long.

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I just started to say, I think they've been around a lot longer than most, Folks realize where are they from

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originally they're from France and like a lot of poultry breeds where they are named for the region they came from, the breasts are from the breast region, and there's a whole lot of history and methods and how they're grown there and a lot of different variations within there's also different varieties.

00:01:06.286 --> 00:01:13.786
There's actually a lot to it, so I don't know how deep you want me to go into the French side of all their history or

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move on to how they're important to it.

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We don't have to get hung up on it, but yeah, give us a little detail there.

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So most common in the U.

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S.

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is the White Bresse, and That's not the first variety that came later on.

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The colors that we don't have here officially right now is like the gray Bresse, and that was where they started from.

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And there's also black, which of course means there's blue and splash as well.

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And there's a red gold too.

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And they each have their own name.

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They're named differently for their specific regions over in France.

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So you can't say all the different colors are the same Bresse.

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They all have their own more specialty breed names.

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I'm curious what attracted you to Bresse to begin with?

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The very first time I'd actually heard about him was through an advertisement I saw, and so I looked up the name and I was surprised by what I found and I was intrigued and with what they were saying for the dual purpose qualities, that's where I was in my flock development was trying to do that transition into dual purpose.

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And I had been having a hard time, Really seeing both meat and eggs from one breed.

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Like it was not going well.

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And after I saw that ad for them, I reached out to the lady and I talked to her for a while and I ended up getting some chicks and eggs from her

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and

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what I had read about actually turned out to be mostly true with that first group.

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So I thought they were pretty incredible right out of the gate.

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And now we can process.

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At 14, 16 weeks and they've been a lot of fun to breed up and improve and work on the standard.

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It's been a lot of fun with them and it's the yield that really made it more enjoyable because I didn't have to stress about a cockerel management program.

00:03:06.436 --> 00:03:08.955
They just go to the freezer if you have too many.

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I'm curious and I know you deal with this on a regular basis.

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But what are some of the traits to look for if somebody's wanting to start out with this breed?

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If you're actually going to have them for the dual purpose qualities, especially the table qualities, you want to find something that has their bloodline bred for growth rate and the fleshing and the body structure, body capacity, all of those important things for overall production.

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They need that in their families so that you get a more consistent and reliable Table presentation.

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And because we're not eating, the top shelf best breeding stock birds.

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We're eating the ones who didn't quite turn out as great as how their parents were.

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And those to me still need to be like a meaningful bird in some capacity.

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So that growth rate and the fleshing, it was the most elusive thing when I was trying a lot of different breeds.

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And these had that, so I've been terrified of losing it by making the wrong breeding decisions, so getting that growth rate predictable, that's

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pretty important.

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You've been working to improve that, right?

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Yeah, but they had it pretty well though they weren't far off the mark when I got started with them, at least in the batch that I started with.

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I've tried some groups from some other places and it varied.

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Tremendously, and what you could expect from those offspring.

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So that's where I started to learn just how diverse that flock is because every farm almost has a different kind of growth rate, a different kind of look to the bird.

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They're not very consistent yet.

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So that's why we started working on a standard for them in the U S to try to be like there's a way these birds are supposed to look and grow and perform and standards help keep everybody on the same page.

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Yeah.

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Sue Dobson's got a question here.

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What's your timeframe from hatch to freezer?

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I'm averaging 15 weeks and seeing anywhere from three and a half pounds up towards, sometimes past four and a half pounds.

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Cause like I said, we're not eating the very best ones.

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So some of them are smaller.

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Some are perfect.

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Some are a little bit bigger, which is why they didn't make the cut.

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Cause there is such a thing as too big.

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You have to keep a overall balance going with them.

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I've seen a couple of people breed for that size and it ended up changing the meat to bone ratio, which is another important thing to them.

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They're supposed to be like a real fine kind of delicate, graceful bird, like a solid medium.

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They're not supposed to be massive.

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12 pound birds when they're a year old, they're supposed to just fall right smack in the middle of the spectrum of chicken, but have like more breast meat, more thigh meat, but on a thinner, delicate bone.

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If that makes sense.

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And I think you were one of the first folks I had ever talked about.

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Was a breed that was supposed to have more delicate bone structure.

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Yeah, it was the first

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I'd ever heard of that.

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Like I know in some game birds and things like that, you want like a finer bone, like a more elegant kind of look to them, not like a big, thick legged Brahma or something along those lines where they're, they're huge.

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They build this structure up because they're going to become a massive bird.

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Yeah.

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I was, the first time I heard that, I thought gee, that's opposite of what most folks with a dual purpose breed go for.

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They like those big substantial bones on those birds.

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It helps them stay meaty for the duration of growth, which really goes a long way on bringing your processing date earlier rather than later.

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Because you can find birds that are freezer ready at 14, 15, 16 weeks old, or maybe it's 20 weeks, 24 weeks, all the way up towards 8 months old before they're fleshy and caught up with their bone growth.

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Some of them spend a lot of time growing bone, and the American Bresse, the ones we have here, there's some pretty big birds out there that grow that same way, where it's a little bit of a slow burn to get up to the freezer age.

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Some people do wait past 24 weeks up to 30 weeks just to get the pounds on them, but then at that point, they're not really feed efficient anymore.

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So by keeping them right where they should be, you get a better feed conversion because they're not doing months of skeletal growth.

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They're meaty for the whole time, just Pick your age.

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Got you.

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What kind of yield do you want?

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If they're going to be, what, like 16 weeks, we see a more consistent four pound, four and a half pound.

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And then up towards 20 weeks, we're looking more at six pounds, but by then the feed conversion is different.

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And it changes the texture of the meat if they're not capons, like if they have their, male hormones coming in right at 18, 19, 20 weeks.

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Then sometimes Rooster Coop can get a little chaotic if you have all your boys together at that age.

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So I like doing it earlier, right when you haven't just poured feed into them for months and months.

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Cause that was the struggle with a lot of other stuff I tried is yeah, they eventually got big.

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Eventually.

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How would you classify their Temperament.

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Oh, it can vary.

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So I have probably three distinct different temperaments in my flock since I have, a barn full of them and they're not all the same family.

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So I have some really chill, lazy ones.

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They're trip hazards.

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They stand at the door waiting on me.

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They let me just reach down and pet them.

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Like they're very easygoing, almost like an Orpington or that sort of temperament where they're just easy and chill.

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And then I have some others who.

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If I surprise them, they bounce off the walls, and then you shoot in 50 different directions, and those I'm not crazy about.

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And then there's others that are middle of the road,

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just chicken and

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cabbage.

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And you and I were talking about this earlier today.

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We were comparing them to another breed, but I think anytime we get birds imported in from another country, it seems like we see the same sort of scenarios.

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Temperaments are pretty much all over the place.

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Growth rates are all over the place.

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I don't know why that is, but.

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We're talking earlier today about Marans and when they first came over, they were the same way, they're, they were all over the place and the type was not consistent but they persevered with them and got them pretty much whipped into shape now.

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So I'm pretty sure you guys can do the same thing with Bresse.

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And Rip, in your opinion, how long does it take to really develop a strong family line?

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How many generations do you need to run through before you can confidently say, this group is a family that's predictable, it's consistent?

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How long does that take?

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Oh gosh, Mandelyn, I think that has a lot of dependence upon the quality of the birds you start with.

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If you've got good sound quality birds you can get a good family going in three, four years.

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If you've got a lot of Diversity and type and color and weight and growth rates and attitudes.

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It can take you a while to weed through all of that.

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I

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always think of it in terms of decades, if it's going to be a real big project and the American Bresse weren't imported until 2011.

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So they haven't been here long enough for that many people to really have those established family flocks where all of the silly recessive traits have been out, they've got all the.

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Disease resistance to stuff that's in America, because when birds also get imported, they're carrying immunities for what was in their natural environment.

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And then you just rock their world and put them halfway around the planet with a brand new list of things that they have to get used to in their environment.

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So they had to go through that process as well.

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Initially there is, coccidia sensitivities and that's still ongoing in some flocks because it's all work in progress.

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They're pretty new and chicken time.

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I'm just going to throw this out there.

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But do you think that's related to the birds themselves or related to breeders that have them that are not really aware and tuned into how to breed for improvement?

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I think that's subjective and it depends and some people are prepared for the project and others dive in head first and they don't know where they're swimming to yet.

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But most of them do start doing research and learning and catching on and they grow with their flock.

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Like a lot of people come out on the other side and go, wow, and that was a crash course.

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I wasn't anticipating.

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I just wanted these birds, but it turns out, no, that's the whole thing.

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But you get to eat good and you get a basket full of eggs every day.

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Like the amount that they lay compared to the harvest yields.

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Like they really are dual purpose to me.

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Yeah.

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I was just going to say, Sue Dobson says she still has recesses coming out in her crabs after seven years.

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Yeah.

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It might be forever.

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I don't know.

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Mandy, when you gave the weights earlier three and a half, four pounds.

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Is what does that include?

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Is that carcass?

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With neck is that carcass with that's no neck

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and no gizzards and I also remove the little tail nub I take that off too.

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You're removing the Pope's nose.

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Why do you do that?

00:12:48.961 --> 00:12:50.591
Because it looks better in a shrink bag

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Yeah, yes, don't you know?

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Oil gland there

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just

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cut out the oil gland

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weird

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There is really good meat in the Pope's nose.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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That is a delicacy.

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You're going to offend someone by cutting it off.

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Really?

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Should I collect them and deep fry them as a group?

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Oh, yeah.

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Yeah.

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You could

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skewer them and do them on the barbecue.

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Some people breed for the way it looks.

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On two feet.

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Mandy has a large concern for that bag.

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Look.

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It's a lot

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of work.

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She wants it to look good on the table.

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By the time I've got that bird in the kitchen, I need it to be beautiful.

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That's right.

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There's a huge fat deposit in the tail.

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And there is a little bit of meat along the spinal cord that extends out into that tail.

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But, there's some flavor profile that you're throwing away.

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Just think of it that way.

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You're giving it to the dogs or something, I realize.

00:13:53.931 --> 00:14:00.350
But, my point being is, my personal opinion, I'm not buying a chicken that's missing the tail.

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Ain't happening.

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Ain't happening.

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Because, I got people in my family that go for that piece first.

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Just because of the tenderness of the meat in the tail.

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See, I'm that way about the oyster up there on the top of the thigh.

00:14:15.456 --> 00:14:15.855
Yeah.

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I can't lose those.

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Those are premium.

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That's the second place some of my family members go is for the oyster.

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That's my first spot.

00:14:25.316 --> 00:14:27.745
That little oyster on either side above the thighs.

00:14:28.066 --> 00:14:30.475
So anyway, you're talking about a plain carcass.

00:14:30.475 --> 00:14:33.066
No neck, no heart, no gizzard, no liver.

00:14:33.525 --> 00:14:37.485
So almost you could pretty much add a pound back to that.

00:14:37.895 --> 00:14:40.375
So what you're calling four pound actually.

00:14:41.176 --> 00:14:44.035
I could jam everything back in there in its own bag.

00:14:44.206 --> 00:14:44.826
Yes.

00:14:45.186 --> 00:14:45.446
Yeah.

00:14:45.556 --> 00:14:51.115
And but that should make closer to a five pound saleable meat.

00:14:51.566 --> 00:14:51.975
Okay.

00:14:52.056 --> 00:14:56.426
Because everything you're taking off is part of the package.

00:14:56.686 --> 00:15:00.885
And but yeah, somebody had asked what if that was carcass or live weight?

00:15:00.990 --> 00:15:07.140
And Carrie answered that it was, but I wanted to know what was included in the weights that you were giving.

00:15:07.660 --> 00:15:13.331
So generally for live weights, I'm looking them, looking for the res to be a minimum of six pounds.

00:15:14.020 --> 00:15:18.696
And sometimes they should only lose 30% at And that's on the high side.

00:15:19.115 --> 00:15:19.446
They should.

00:15:19.446 --> 00:15:20.336
I do.

00:15:20.336 --> 00:15:23.725
Even if you take off the necks and everything else, that should be 30%.

00:15:24.125 --> 00:15:27.985
Okay, so a 6 pounder, 30 percent puts it at 4.

00:15:28.035 --> 00:15:28.625
2 pounds.

00:15:28.676 --> 00:15:31.586
That should be exactly where you're at, right?

00:15:32.140 --> 00:15:34.870
I think in Ohio math, that's where she's at.

00:15:35.671 --> 00:15:35.951
Yeah.

00:15:36.750 --> 00:15:36.780
Yeah.

00:15:37.081 --> 00:15:38.841
They do math differently in Ohio.

00:15:38.841 --> 00:15:40.020
I know that for sure.

00:15:40.520 --> 00:15:42.331
We do a lot different in Ohio, okay?

00:15:42.370 --> 00:15:42.791
Yes, you

00:15:42.791 --> 00:15:42.971
do.

00:15:43.770 --> 00:15:50.240
New life in upstate New York says he agrees that the tail and the skin are the best parts.

00:15:50.801 --> 00:15:50.941
Oh,

00:15:50.941 --> 00:15:54.640
I have to cook the skin just a certain way if I'm going to eat the skin too.

00:15:54.650 --> 00:15:56.571
Otherwise I save that for the puppies too.

00:15:56.811 --> 00:15:57.900
That's my favorite part.

00:15:58.311 --> 00:15:59.990
See you, you like roasting them.

00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:01.270
You like slow roasting them.

00:16:01.331 --> 00:16:03.071
That's your preferred way of doing it.

00:16:03.581 --> 00:16:03.961
That

00:16:03.971 --> 00:16:10.380
or smoke, but lately we've expanded out into chicken tenders, chicken nuggets, ground chicken.

00:16:10.380 --> 00:16:17.530
I did chicken sausage, which I was surprised about because of the flavor it had plus the seasoning.

00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:19.650
That was pretty good.

00:16:19.841 --> 00:16:24.721
And like today we did some chicken masala, tiki masala, something.

00:16:25.520 --> 00:16:29.130
My husband cooked today, so I was off the hook and it was pretty good.

00:16:29.441 --> 00:16:29.811
Good chicken.

00:16:29.811 --> 00:16:29.870
I'll tell

00:16:29.870 --> 00:16:33.850
you what my wife calls it when I cook, chef surprise.

00:16:34.650 --> 00:16:35.201
Take it out.

00:16:35.860 --> 00:16:36.061
Yeah.

00:16:36.860 --> 00:16:37.341
Yeah.

00:16:38.140 --> 00:16:38.510
Okay.

00:16:38.640 --> 00:16:40.941
So if somebody wants to get started.

00:16:41.740 --> 00:16:49.311
Raising this breed, should they start with hatching eggs, baby chicks, started birds, or adults?

00:16:50.110 --> 00:17:05.730
Oh, that's tricky, cause while their population is steadily growing, and while they're getting more and more popular, they're still spread pretty thin, and in a lot of cases, people are just having to get whatever they can find if they want to avoid shipping.

00:17:06.520 --> 00:17:09.651
And most of the shipping is just gonna be chicks or eggs.

00:17:10.310 --> 00:17:30.701
And some folks they spend a year, two, three years just collecting a flock to get going, because they feel like they have to start with a lot of quantity, which you only need that quantity if you're doing chicks or eggs, because like you can do pretty good progress on figuring out what you were sent, if you got a box of a hundred chicks.

00:17:31.476 --> 00:17:41.165
And you systematically sorted out and looked for their growth rate and who was gaining the best and you filtered them out leading up towards six months old.

00:17:41.955 --> 00:17:45.046
And then you can come out with a pretty solid breeding stake from that.

00:17:45.286 --> 00:17:53.526
But if you order 10 chicks, oh, you're going to be, you're going to be working for a little while because there's like the diversity they have within them.

00:17:53.861 --> 00:17:57.820
And the trade expression, it's like a box of chocolates.

00:17:58.621 --> 00:18:03.131
So if you can get older proven birds where what is what you get, that's good.

00:18:03.131 --> 00:18:06.881
But then just make sure they're not too old, make sure they can actually help get you started.

00:18:07.681 --> 00:18:12.351
And then definitely get your hands on them if you can, to feel that they're meaty.

00:18:12.401 --> 00:18:13.661
Cause there's some floating around.

00:18:14.461 --> 00:18:15.300
They're not meaty.

00:18:15.361 --> 00:18:26.530
They didn't have any work done for their growth rate, they didn't have any work done for the fleshing, and they don't feel much different than any other standard medium fowl.

00:18:27.330 --> 00:18:34.681
But if it's, if they're well done, and they are layered in the meat, like they've been one of the meatiest purebred birds I've ever put my hands on.

00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:37.090
But it varies and it depends.

00:18:37.340 --> 00:18:41.181
How many strains or how many families or how many whatever.

00:18:41.816 --> 00:18:43.645
of the Bresse came over originally.

00:18:43.776 --> 00:18:45.236
Wasn't there three different

00:18:45.905 --> 00:19:16.736
Yeah, so there were three different ones, two of them were similar, one was completely different, and for diversity's sake they were co mingled with each other in a spiral program, so it really made a big change in how many different ways these birds can grow and perform, because all, everything in all three of those lines is After you get, to that magic third generation of trait chaos in a breeding program.

00:19:17.236 --> 00:19:24.175
It's exciting if you're right smack in the middle of all the different variables that can be within the breed.

00:19:24.976 --> 00:19:30.536
So I use it as an opportunity to learn more about chickens in general and how traits pass forward.

00:19:30.536 --> 00:19:36.681
And I've turned it into this big breeding experiment, which is teaching me more than I ever knew I needed to know.

00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:38.010
which is cool.

00:19:38.641 --> 00:19:46.770
So Rip and Mandy, does it make sense to accelerate the breeding program and have two hatching seasons?

00:19:47.570 --> 00:19:56.641
So in other words, like you can pretty much have a cockerel at six months old and know what, have a pretty good feel for what is genetics you're going to do.

00:19:57.280 --> 00:20:02.590
Should you use artificial lights to stimulate hens to start laying again?

00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:10.840
I wouldn't cause like they're really supposed to be like a Free range, hardy kind of bird.

00:20:10.851 --> 00:20:21.550
And I think when you start propping them up and babying them and forcing them, like you're going to change stuff about them that might not be positive for the long term.

00:20:21.550 --> 00:20:26.510
Then you still want to give them time to mature before you really start breeding from them.

00:20:26.510 --> 00:20:30.500
Like I wait till they're almost a year old before I even start doing test hatches.

00:20:31.300 --> 00:20:32.671
It just slows down the process.

00:20:32.671 --> 00:20:33.711
That's the only thing I'm thinking.

00:20:33.780 --> 00:20:34.580
That's how I ended up with

00:20:34.580 --> 00:20:35.371
a barn full.

00:20:36.171 --> 00:20:38.560
I have them going in a lot of different ways.

00:20:39.355 --> 00:20:40.935
So that I'm always hatching something.

00:20:41.546 --> 00:20:54.355
Now, Mandy, if I remember correctly, during one of the conversations we had, you'd mentioned that you weight to the cockerels are closer to a year old, but you also said something about the egg weight.

00:20:54.855 --> 00:20:55.526
Yeah, is it

00:20:55.705 --> 00:20:59.556
60 or 62 grams, something like that, if I remember right?

00:21:00.355 --> 00:21:13.965
That's the general size range, 60 grams, but when I'm doing test hatches from some younger birds, if I have questions I want answered I'll let, 56 grams, 54 grams sneak in there and for the early look For science.

00:21:13.986 --> 00:21:14.306
Yeah.

00:21:14.326 --> 00:21:14.746
Yeah.

00:21:14.865 --> 00:21:15.076
Yeah.

00:21:15.875 --> 00:21:26.875
Jeff I did two hatches a year for several years, not because I felt like I needed to do it to improve the birds, but I did it because.

00:21:27.516 --> 00:21:29.965
It helps with timing birds for shows.

00:21:30.115 --> 00:21:34.326
I just didn't know if you could get a, get a jumpstart when you're trying to clean up genetics.

00:21:34.965 --> 00:21:35.405
I wouldn't think you

00:21:35.705 --> 00:21:36.006
could.

00:21:36.435 --> 00:21:37.286
That's what I was thinking.

00:21:37.486 --> 00:21:50.976
If you know that this rooster, this hen is really consistent and gives you this, and if I took a 20 week or 24 week old cockerel from that hatch.

00:21:51.486 --> 00:21:59.086
and put it back on its mother, man, I could bring out a lot of defects to start cleaning up that line in a hurry.

00:21:59.405 --> 00:21:59.756
Okay.

00:22:00.256 --> 00:22:23.816
So if you've got that hen rooster pairing that is really consistent and you want to see how purified it is or how consistent it is, coming back and either putting the father on the daughter and probably do both, but put the father on the daughter and the son on the mother, just to see if you're as good as you thought you were.

00:22:24.336 --> 00:22:29.236
In that previous meeting, you're going to bring out all the ugly in a hurry by doing that.

00:22:29.786 --> 00:22:38.576
And I think folks can get a clue when they're getting close to being able to do that, when they see their birds starting to look very uniform

00:22:39.375 --> 00:22:41.296
and I don't know if Mandy's there, right?

00:22:41.306 --> 00:22:41.875
So I'm not.

00:22:42.385 --> 00:22:52.576
I'm just, just trying to think of ways to accelerate cleaning up the breed that, other people have really mongrelized and screwed it up in many ways.

00:22:53.105 --> 00:22:56.786
I know there's a lot of people out there in a hurry to get good Bresse.

00:22:57.326 --> 00:22:58.375
You can't rush it.

00:22:58.675 --> 00:22:59.346
Nah.

00:22:59.476 --> 00:23:00.026
Yeah.

00:23:00.076 --> 00:23:00.256
You can.

00:23:00.756 --> 00:23:01.306
You can.

00:23:01.405 --> 00:23:02.826
Some people are always in a hurry.

00:23:03.625 --> 00:23:04.756
I'm one of those people.

00:23:04.766 --> 00:23:06.316
This is teaching me to slow down a little bit.

00:23:06.996 --> 00:23:07.705
You can do it.

00:23:07.990 --> 00:23:15.621
Yeah I really think if you came back, son on mother if you already know that you've got this rooster in this hand, that are I've

00:23:15.810 --> 00:23:25.950
been doing some of that, and I've done a couple sibling matings to see how fudgy things were in there, and I've got a couple of pens that are a lot better than the other in progress pens.

00:23:25.951 --> 00:23:41.369
I bet if Mandy got more ruthless than what she already is with her culling, she could do twice a year and wouldn't have an atrocious amount of birds.

00:23:42.170 --> 00:23:42.849
I agree.

00:23:43.630 --> 00:23:44.000
I agree.

00:23:44.609 --> 00:23:50.289
Sometimes I think about doing that and then I'm like, Oh, but then I don't want to call myself into a corner.

00:23:51.089 --> 00:23:52.660
I got to keep the ingredients.

00:23:53.460 --> 00:23:53.930
I don't know.

00:23:53.931 --> 00:23:54.407
Do you?

00:23:54.407 --> 00:23:54.884
Do you?

00:23:54.884 --> 00:23:55.363
Do you?

00:23:55.363 --> 00:23:55.839
Do you?

00:23:56.119 --> 00:24:03.240
Some of your ingredients are already at other farms, so it really wouldn't be that hard to back up a step.

00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:04.640
That's true.

00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:21.835
They are at other locations, so it's not like you, you might back yourself into a corner at your farm, but the ability to get offspring and go back to where you were a year ago, Wouldn't be that difficult because you know

00:24:21.884 --> 00:24:25.934
exactly what I was looking for and I'd be like, hey, let me see your 12 week olds.

00:24:26.015 --> 00:24:26.305
Yeah

00:24:27.105 --> 00:24:31.694
Hey Austin wants to know what is the best time of the year to hatch Bresse?

00:24:32.125 --> 00:24:34.164
Spring, fall, summer, winter.

00:24:34.474 --> 00:24:35.035
What do you think?

00:24:35.394 --> 00:25:02.569
It depends on the climate Right now I'm a big fan of fall hatching because it captures the best layers because Practically any chicken is going to be laying in the spring, and unless you're trap nesting, you don't exactly know who's who, and I am a fan of small clans, and then collecting by the pen, but this time of year, anyone who's not a strong layer is taking a little break, and it's only the troopers that are still in active lay, so

00:25:02.570 --> 00:25:03.071
those eggs

00:25:03.071 --> 00:25:06.585
I'm finding this time of year, I'm sticking all of those in the incubator.

00:25:07.234 --> 00:25:09.285
Because those are my strongest girls making them.

00:25:10.085 --> 00:25:12.694
So I've got a nice, pretty healthy fall batch.

00:25:12.694 --> 00:25:14.394
I've got about a hundred or so I'm growing.

00:25:15.194 --> 00:25:19.005
So I think our last processing is going to be right after Thanksgiving.

00:25:19.694 --> 00:25:20.815
And then I'll take a little break.

00:25:21.384 --> 00:25:26.984
Fall hatching is actually, you can do it and you explain why you're doing it.

00:25:27.575 --> 00:25:34.924
But I think for most people starting out with them, the spring hatch is probably going to be a lot easier.

00:25:35.315 --> 00:25:45.125
For most people, new, in their first two or three years of doing a breeding program, I think the spring hatch is probably a better choice.

00:25:45.125 --> 00:25:47.494
And the pasture is better, and the grow out is better.

00:25:47.515 --> 00:25:58.875
Like I, I like to have another group going in to hatch by the end of March or so, so that by mid April, they're outside on new grass, taking advantage of the free food.

00:25:59.674 --> 00:26:02.690
Yeah, I like, me personally, I like this time of year.

00:26:03.460 --> 00:26:15.410
Because you see the ones that are laying they're dedicated to laying and I like the vigor that they get from Survive in the winter, personally.

00:26:15.670 --> 00:26:16.809
That makes perfect sense.

00:26:16.809 --> 00:26:22.549
And I'm not discouraging anyone listening from doing what you and Mandy are talking about.

00:26:22.710 --> 00:26:23.460
I'm just saying.

00:26:24.059 --> 00:26:37.359
For a new breeder who just got Bresse, if we go back to Mandy's comment earlier in the show, that, people bought Bresse because they heard they were a great homesteader meat bird with good lay.

00:26:37.954 --> 00:26:39.994
All right, no experience on breeding.

00:26:40.005 --> 00:26:45.555
They end up at the end of the year with everything from two pounders to 12 pounders, right?

00:26:45.644 --> 00:26:47.134
And they don't know what they're doing.

00:26:47.555 --> 00:26:47.984
Okay.

00:26:48.134 --> 00:26:49.914
And I'm not putting them down.

00:26:50.375 --> 00:26:51.315
They're just new to it.

00:26:51.484 --> 00:26:51.845
Okay.

00:26:51.855 --> 00:26:57.115
So as your experience level increases, you can start doing those things.

00:26:57.224 --> 00:27:09.835
But first or second year breeders, I think you're, I think they're asking for trouble to try and replicate What a seasoned breeder is doing after seven or 10 years.

00:27:09.984 --> 00:27:10.234
Okay.

00:27:10.285 --> 00:27:12.015
That's my only point, right?

00:27:12.025 --> 00:27:17.234
Don't start doing that out of the gate because you, you're going to run yourself into trouble.

00:27:17.875 --> 00:27:23.845
In the winter care dynamic too, like you don't want to go into winter buried in extra birds.

00:27:23.845 --> 00:27:26.184
Like you need to have a plan for sure.

00:27:26.984 --> 00:27:30.565
It's not the best selling time for the open market either.

00:27:30.585 --> 00:27:32.795
So my plan is always dinner.

00:27:32.845 --> 00:27:34.744
So I'm not at the mercy of market swings.

00:27:35.545 --> 00:27:36.944
I know where the cockerels are going.

00:27:37.444 --> 00:27:41.914
And, and I think a lot of people who are getting the Bresse, that's exactly their plan as well, right?

00:27:42.434 --> 00:27:47.654
It's meat for their family, but, hatching much later in the year.

00:27:48.454 --> 00:27:50.335
If you're in the northern part of the U.

00:27:50.335 --> 00:27:50.694
S.

00:27:50.825 --> 00:27:53.535
where the nights are starting to get cold, right?

00:27:53.625 --> 00:28:00.355
Now you have to have a heating plan, you need a whole other set of infrastructure.

00:28:00.355 --> 00:28:00.369
Sure.

00:28:01.170 --> 00:28:03.759
You just, it needs to line up with where you live also.

00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:05.269
That is true.

00:28:05.349 --> 00:28:05.710
Yeah.

00:28:05.849 --> 00:28:07.890
So it never gets cold in

00:28:07.890 --> 00:28:08.490
Alabama.

00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:09.640
So you're all set.

00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:14.220
I'll put a bird outside in January, December at five weeks.

00:28:15.019 --> 00:28:15.750
And you can do it.

00:28:16.549 --> 00:28:19.079
You may not do that in Ohio.

00:28:19.650 --> 00:28:19.849
Yeah.

00:28:19.849 --> 00:28:21.059
I wait till seven weeks.

00:28:21.859 --> 00:28:25.380
There ain't much grass out there at seven in the middle of the wild.

00:28:25.390 --> 00:28:25.609
No,

00:28:25.609 --> 00:28:26.680
but they have their feathers.

00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:27.880
They're a fast feather.

00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:30.309
That's hybrid vigor right there.

00:28:31.099 --> 00:28:31.309
Yep.

00:28:32.109 --> 00:28:32.329
Yep.

00:28:32.369 --> 00:28:33.000
Throw them out there.

00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:33.569
Live or die.

00:28:34.369 --> 00:28:34.660
All right.

00:28:34.670 --> 00:28:35.279
Sorry Rip.

00:28:35.470 --> 00:28:36.089
That's all right.

00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:36.890
No.

00:28:36.930 --> 00:28:37.920
This is all good stuff.

00:28:38.309 --> 00:28:38.500
Yep.

00:28:38.650 --> 00:28:47.240
Mandy, one thing I wanted to get you to touch on, and I see it come up a lot in the groups and particularly on the best group.

00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:54.319
They have white breasts and invariably somebody is going to hatch some that have black spots on them.

00:28:55.119 --> 00:28:55.299
Can you

00:28:55.299 --> 00:28:56.220
explain that?

00:28:57.019 --> 00:29:13.769
It means they're not homogenous for dominant white and they've got some black sneaking through which is actually not a terrible problem to have because at least now you know the base color is black and they're not going to yellow out on you and turn orange by having the wrong base color under the dominant white.

00:29:14.329 --> 00:29:22.849
And you can breed them to where they pick up two copies of the dominant white gene and then you get the full coverage right over top of that black on a crispy white feather.

00:29:23.650 --> 00:29:24.069
It's neat.

00:29:24.869 --> 00:29:28.849
But yeah, black spots aren't a bad problem to have and it's fixable.

00:29:29.650 --> 00:29:32.039
But it's not anything to freak out over y'all.

00:29:32.390 --> 00:29:33.200
You know what it is.

00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:34.369
No, I freak out more over

00:29:34.369 --> 00:29:34.849
red.

00:29:35.380 --> 00:29:36.920
Yes, I would too.

00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:42.670
And that also those on with red in their background will also be the ones that go Brasse.

00:29:43.470 --> 00:29:48.279
And I get a little concerned about yellow feet, green feet, yellow beaks, stuff like that.

00:29:48.339 --> 00:29:52.650
It's hard to know if that's a recessive throwback trait from some of the earlier breeding.

00:29:53.000 --> 00:30:02.069
Cause like in Europe, you have to remember both world wars decimated the poultry flocks throughout all of those regions.

00:30:02.690 --> 00:30:06.150
And there were a lot of breeds that didn't make a comeback.

00:30:06.950 --> 00:30:13.210
The Bresse did make a comeback and they used a couple of helper breeds to boost their commercial qualities in the early 1900s.

00:30:14.009 --> 00:30:21.890
And some of those probably had yellow feet and that might sneak out again later, but it's something that I don't retain in my breeding flocks.

00:30:21.890 --> 00:30:24.269
If I ever see it, I'm like, Oh, you're the wrong color.

00:30:24.269 --> 00:30:28.089
You're going in the freezer, but it's not unheard of.

00:30:28.089 --> 00:30:29.720
It's just not desirable.

00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:35.250
But if you look in the history and you look at their work to bring in the commercial lines.

00:30:36.049 --> 00:30:43.519
Which is worth looking up and reading on like I should have brought a link, but Their history is pretty interesting.

00:30:43.670 --> 00:30:44.160
It is.

00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:45.450
It really is.

00:30:46.250 --> 00:30:47.509
Got some questions here.

00:30:48.309 --> 00:30:52.730
Austin Blanchard wants to know do you have any problem feeding your breasts?

00:30:53.134 --> 00:30:55.055
In the heart of hotter part of the year.

00:30:55.855 --> 00:31:00.384
No, mine tend to camp out a little more in the barn because it's shaded.

00:31:00.394 --> 00:31:05.325
And I have very deep sand closer to their pop doors.

00:31:05.325 --> 00:31:10.525
Like it's gotta be a good eight inches thick because of how my barn steps down with the concrete.

00:31:10.525 --> 00:31:11.535
I just filled it with sand.

00:31:12.275 --> 00:31:14.894
So they'll dig down and hang out there in the afternoon.

00:31:14.904 --> 00:31:15.974
Then they get up and go eat.

00:31:16.775 --> 00:31:20.184
They go through less feed because they are being lazier, but.

00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:27.460
There hasn't been any significant changes, but our heat's not too terrible either we rarely cross over 100 degrees.

00:31:28.259 --> 00:31:30.289
The humidity will cross 100 for sure.

00:31:30.500 --> 00:31:32.009
They don't feel like 105.

00:31:32.809 --> 00:31:33.940
But it's not too bad.

00:31:34.740 --> 00:31:40.210
And he also wanted to know, if there is, whoop, come here we go.

00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:45.490
Is there a difference in meat quality in white as opposed to black or gray breasts?

00:31:46.289 --> 00:31:50.049
There's going to be some small little differences, but nothing major.

00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:57.734
If they're breasts, they ought to have the marbling gene for their fat development, and that, is a recessive trait as it turns out.

00:31:57.734 --> 00:32:04.815
So you want to avoid the outcrosses because they're not going to have the same fat development as the purebred birds will have.

00:32:04.815 --> 00:32:06.994
But as far as flavor, that's going to be the same.

00:32:07.664 --> 00:32:11.615
The finishing influences the end result as well.

00:32:11.654 --> 00:32:20.615
So if you have a black breast and a gray breast and the black breast got specially finished, the gray breast did not, How do you know where that difference is?

00:32:20.615 --> 00:32:22.095
Was it the bird or the finishing?

00:32:22.095 --> 00:32:28.484
So you, to really test it out, you'd want to do a side by side where everybody gets the same and then see what the results are.

00:32:28.484 --> 00:32:32.315
But I don't think there's a significant difference.

00:32:32.325 --> 00:32:38.464
Like my three different groups of whites, they're all pretty similar for their table traits and flavor and fat development.

00:32:39.265 --> 00:32:42.154
So it should be the same in the other types, I would think.

00:32:42.954 --> 00:32:43.765
That makes sense.

00:32:44.005 --> 00:32:46.355
What about weather hardiness for your birds?

00:32:46.424 --> 00:32:49.555
Do they have a problem with temperature extremes?

00:32:50.355 --> 00:32:52.505
They tend to handle heat pretty well.

00:32:52.545 --> 00:32:57.875
Mostly because so many of them tend to have oversized combs, like massive combs.

00:32:58.375 --> 00:33:03.424
Some of that is because they were bred to have them.

00:33:03.434 --> 00:33:08.924
Like it wasn't a consideration in the breeding program to have absolutely massive combs.

00:33:09.484 --> 00:33:35.494
And that's okay in Arizona because it helps them release heat, but when those birds have those giant combs and they head to Alaska, it's going to be a problem, but birds are adaptable too, so the second generation you have, if you're in a northern climate, they're going to start evolving to that climate the longer you have them as well, and buying into a flock that's already in the north, that already had time to start, Getting acclimated.

00:33:35.494 --> 00:33:40.934
That's helpful too, because they there's people with them in Utah, Minnesota.

00:33:41.315 --> 00:33:42.305
They're getting through winter.

00:33:42.795 --> 00:33:46.055
Some people have a special considerations with their housing.

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Like for us in Ohio, we have the big barn that it has lungs, it breathes.

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And if we're gonna get sustained temperatures below freezing, I don't do that much different, but if we have sustained sub zero, I'll go wrap the pens in plastic to help hold in a little more heat, and I won't heat the water because it'll bump the humidity too.

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Thank you for joining us this week.

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Before you go, make sure you subscribe to our podcast so you can receive new episodes right when they're released, and they're released every Tuesday.

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And if you're enjoying this podcast, we'd like to ask you to drop us an email at poultrykeeperspodcast at gmail.

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